76 replies to this topic

[mahlerfan]

TooLate, on 29 June 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

Did I not say some killers seem to have his meme in them, she's my proof. I swear he is responsible for triggering more soiciopaths than the Manson cult. They either think they are a terminator or that they're killing one.

LOL - Meme being the key word here. Latter part of your hypothesis ("killing one") is funniest to me.

[mahlerfan]

Bottledbrunette09, on 30 June 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Well, if ONE wants to get technical, The Terminator is just a charcter from a movie, unlike Arnold who is a real person, an actor who played the Terminator. So to say Arnold is a Terminator really isn't true, but I can see how people would call him The Terminator. However, I have never thought of Arnold solely as the Terminator since he has been many, many characters over the his history of acting. When I think of Arnold, I think of him more as the character in True Lies or whatever that movie was called. But, that's just me. When I say someone was like a Terminator, I refer to the robot who is a shape changer and can't be destroyed, not Arnold.

Agree BB, but TL is speaking about Arnold/Terminator as a "meme" ("Did I not say some killers seem to have his meme in them") which is a cultural symbol that is passed from one mind to another (like a gene is passed from one person to another) through shared rituals like movies. In other words a kind of amalgam of traits of the real Arnold and roles he has played in the movies that captures the public imagination and is blurred into a single symbolic figure. It's a fairly common term in the arts and some sciences but is rarely heard outside those specialized areas.

[Crawler]

TooLate, on 25 June 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

Why? I respect the families right to settle on the theory they believe is best fit. Suicide seems to be a good fit - mainly imo due to the door being locked from inside. But no info is goiven as to whether there was another exit - fire exits existed in all similar London hotels I stayed in - including windows.

Psychiatry is my specialty. I am very wary of issues around mental illness sufferers often being downplated eg they often aren't seen as rape victims due to stigma making people see their erepoirts as unreliable. Having mental illness does not equate to being a suicide completer. In fact there are few signs I can see that Joel had lost hope or any of the ambivalence about life/death that normally stands in the way of completed suicide. To be suicidal is something perhaps a majority go through - as in having brief such thoughts, it's fairly normal - but to complete it is much rarer. And to complete it in the way Joel supposedly elected to is almost unheard of. You would need to be quite psychotic, too obviously psychotic for people to be feeling ok about letting their kids visit you. Your conversation (if any) would be far from normal.

I therefore think (speaking mainly from 20 years clinical experience not from any Policing background though) that it is only marginally more likely that Pugh suicided than that the Mansons got to him - given the strong motive revealed here in this website ie CM would not have wanted any chance Good got back with Pugh, since Good was his bank roll. Luckily those with crime policing experience did look for a motive, laying open for eternity the podsibility that there are other possibilities than suicide. I do not believe debate is ended by anything produced here.

It is nothing empirical - just opinion. Including a clear opinion from Good or someone Mansonite that Pugh did suicide. Entirely possible that Sandy could believe this even if it is not true - Mansons MEN did do dirty deeds that not everyone heard about. Unless we can interview Joel the answer may never be known.
It may never be known 100%, though perhaps good taste would say that out of respect for the families right to let the issues fade - so they can rest in some peace of not forever wondering and revisiting - non Pughs should not keep knocking their and the Coroners shared view. I am happy never to discuss it again so as to respect the Pughs right to settle on one view, since if anyone has the right to make the final judgment call about how family history should go down it is them. I really can't see that the call can ever be made with certainty. Too many complications for that to be honest.
Sometimes people want eetainty and need to feel it for their grief process to occur. That's fine, my way though of honoring Joel (as a non griever since I never knew him)would not be to lay down some scenario that can;'t be proved and say "that's it". Due to the risk I could be wrong I'd only eve go as far as saying "I think it was likely that..."
Personally I'd feel very much a transgressor if I said "yep he definitely suicided" when there is a real if small chance this call may be doing him an injustice. One that he is or could be furious about on the other side, as
A) possibly he'd have never done this for a range of reasons and would hate for his family to think this
B) if he was murdered either physically or psychologically driven to suicide with intent eg tormented by words etc in a visit by Davis then the killers win.. there's no chance of moral justice for Pugh, if needed, if the slim chance he was aided to die is completely discounted.

I'll accept the families right to believe what their greatest soul searching tells them, I don't necessarily believe the point they arrived at is the ultimate truth - 80% probability may be the sunm of it. Wrongness is possible. We are only human - none of us were there and wiothout an authentic statement by Joel no one can say. This is somnething many families of suspected suicides must live with - more often though the question is wasit accidental versus suicide - rather than was it... the Mansons greed.

I also find it untenable as a claim that Pugh held such strong views of Manson being a phoney and a dick if he hadn't even met him. Pugh had a science degree - which would suggest a greater propensity for objective & first hand rather than kneejerk judgements.

There is mention of windows and that he was staying on the first floor, VB in Helter Skelter, page 228.

[jempud]

Crawler, on 13 July 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

There is mention of windows and that he was staying on the first floor, VB in Helter Skelter, page 228.

Remember that 'first floor' in the US means 'ground floor' in the UK. Not the same thing!

Jem

[simonwells61]

jempud, on 13 July 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

Remember that 'first floor' in the US means 'ground floor' in the UK. Not the same thing!

Jem

For those who are not aware, the layout of the Talgarth Hotel is quite complex. The front literally sits on the (very) busy, 4-lane Talgarth Road, which links London to the west of England. The rear of the property overlooks Baron's Court Road. It would require some dexterity to gain entry from the rear, as a very large wall surrounds the place. Additionally, as the property is locked either side by other houses, it would be tough to gain entry this way without being seen. Not impossible, but certainly difficult.

[mahlerfan]

simonwells61, on 14 July 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

For those who are not aware, the layout of the Talgarth Hotel is quite complex. The front literally sits on the (very) busy, 4-lane Talgarth Road, which links London to the west of England. The rear of the property overlooks Baron's Court Road. It would require some dexterity to gain entry from the rear, as a very large wall surrounds the place. Additionally, as the property is locked either side by other houses, it would be tough to gain entry this way without being seen. Not impossible, but certainly difficult.

I think there's a photo of the building at Charliemanson.com.

[catscradle77]

mahlerfan, on 14 July 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think there's a photo of the building at Charliemanson.com.

And at Simon's website www.joelpughcharlesmanson.blogspot.com

[simonwells61]

cuntry_trash, on 14 July 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

That was a good read- thanks. However, I think it raised a few more questions and was not at all a definitive conclusion at all. I will have to read it a few more times to really take it in 100%, but it seems to me that even though it was ruled a suicide there is a chance it could have been something else.

The fact that Bruce Davis' whereabouts can not be pinpointed Dec 1969 still leaves that scenario open.

I truly hope that it was indeed a suicide, myself. As harsh as that seems, it's a better way to go than to be murdered over (what seemed to be) a money issue.

You're right, there's a few outstanding issues that need to be resolved, but that aside, the site is really an attempt to put all the known facts (and documents) together in one place for anyone else attempting to revive the story (which I’m sure will probably happen again in the future). For me, the entirety of the letter from "Joanne" absolves most of the suspicion that it was a murder. Obviously, if anyone knows different, please let us know.

Thanks for reading, and many thanks for Cats for highlighting the site.

Si x

[Crawler]

Come now. Both wrist slit, plus throat cut from ear to ear. Suicide? I do not think so. But that is my opinion.

[Attyla]

can be done, usually in hot water to make it easier, but certainly those injuries can be self inflicted

[simonwells61]

Crawler, on 14 July 2010 - 12:42 PM, said:

Come now. Both wrist slit, plus throat cut from ear to ear. Suicide? I do not think so. But that is my opinion.

To quote from the pathologist report: 'There was no wound not capable of being self-inflicted,’ It also goes on to say that there was no evidence of a struggle or violence.

Regards,

Si

[Crawler]

simonwells61, on 14 July 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

To quote from the pathologist report: 'There was no wound not capable of being self-inflicted,’ It also goes on to say that there was no evidence of a struggle or violence.

Regards,

Si

Ok think about it. slice your wrist then cut your throat?

[simonwells61]

Crawler, on 14 July 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ok think about it. slice your wrist then cut your throat?

Yes, I can see how it might appear unusual. But given that Joel had a long history of mental health issues, to me, it makes it far less suspicious. Absolutely none of this was entertained when LA/Inyo County police were making their claims.

Si

[catscradle77]

Crawler, on 14 July 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ok think about it. slice your wrist then cut your throat?

What about hesitation marks etc?

[Attyla]

Crawler, on 14 July 2010 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ok think about it. slice your wrist then cut your throat?

OK,now think like a manic depressive. it can be done

[Crawler]

catscradle77, on 14 July 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

What about hesitation marks etc?

Is that mentioned?

[catscradle77]

Crawler, on 14 July 2010 - 02:29 PM, said:

Is that mentioned?

That is what I am wondering.

[Crawler]

Ok now I need to find out, thanx Cats, LOL!

[Crawler]

Ok Cats this is a must read. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163573/Did-Charles-Manson-Murder-Gang-Strike-Britain.html