76 replies to this topic

[mahlerfan]

TooLate, on 27 June 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

In a suicide, while there may be additional cuts across the wrist and tentative test stabbings to see if it will hurt, or to work up courage, there will usually only be one (lethal) wound and most likely in the chest.

Stabbing through clothing, even if there's only one wound, may indicate homicide.

Both points figure in the Elliott Smith suicide mentioned above. 1 - No tentative wounds and not a single wound to chest, rather two deep stab wounds (self-inflicted? Hard to imagine). 2 - Wounds were parallel to ribs (i.e., horizontal orientation) but he was stabbed through his clothing.

Not trying to start an "Elliott Smith - Murder or Suicide?" forum - just mindful of similarities and always distraught when artistic types take their own lives. (Still trying to figure out if poor Nick Drake meant to overdose or did so accidentally).

[Sherdelune]

mahlerfan, on 27 June 2010 - 11:46 AM, said:

Both points figure in the Elliott Smith suicide mentioned above. 1 - No tentative wounds and not a single wound to chest, rather two deep stab wounds (self-inflicted? Hard to imagine). 2 - Wounds were parallel to ribs (i.e., horizontal orientation) but he was stabbed through his clothing.

Not trying to start an "Elliott Smith - Murder or Suicide?" forum - just mindful of similarities and always distraught when artistic types take their own lives. (Still trying to figure out if poor Nick Drake meant to overdose or did so accidentally).

A friend of mines father committed suicide by stabbing himself in the chest/heart eight times. There was no reason to suspect foul play, and I do believe he left a note. So clearly it's possible to stab one's self to death, although I can't imagine the desperation it took for this man to drive his car to the secluded location and just stab himself.

[mahlerfan]

Sherdelune, on 27 June 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

So clearly it's possible to stab one's self to death, although I can't imagine the desperation it took for this man to drive his car to the secluded location and just stab himself.

So sorry about your friend's father. The degree of self-loathing and emotional agony implied by such violence is painful just to think about.

[freebird]

Sherdelune, on 27 June 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

A friend of mines father committed suicide by stabbing himself in the chest/heart eight times. There was no reason to suspect foul play, and I do believe he left a note. So clearly it's possible to stab one's self to death, although I can't imagine the desperation it took for this man to drive his car to the secluded location and just stab himself.

How can you stab yourself 8 times? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning you regarding the facts. There are much easier, less painful ways than that!! I have a very high tolerance for pain but I don't think I could stand the pain of stabbing myself just once, but 8 times? Not a chance.

Suicide is not for the weak. When I was growing up I was taught that only weak people killed themselves. It takes a whole lot of nerve to actually do it. At a very dark time in my life I thought about it. It isn't "the easy way out" as I was taught. I have a better chance of sprouting feathers than offing myself. Besides , I would have missed this forum and all of you . That would have been tragic,

[TooLate]

freebird, on 28 June 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

Besides , I would have missed this forum and all of you . That would have been tragic,

It's desperation not weakness. As long as we maintain a "healthy" interest in TLB and Cat City we'll know we're all alright. Personally my optimism bias has and would always be protective, but I'd hope a concerned person would override any misinformed wish I might have to live if I were seriously brain or bodily damaged. Killing myself is anathema to my curiosity about the world we live in. But I think it would be quite easy by overdose, if I decided that way.
Only a recent 30 page + discussion on another board (launched by a suicidal guy), that I found quite worrying, converged on agreement that if one does such a thing one would be most socially responsible to make it count eg hand oneself over to medical research, or die in a way to bring notice to a cause etc

[mahlerfan]

freebird, on 28 June 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

Besides , I would have missed this forum and all of you . That would have been tragic,

Here, here. (pint of Guinness)

[mahlerfan]

TooLate, on 28 June 2010 - 06:48 AM, said:

It's desperation not weakness.

Killing myself is anathema to my curiosity about the world we live in.

Human beings are remarkably resilient so long as they believe things might improve. Every person I ever knew who committed suicide had become convinced that things would never get better.

The last suicide of a public figure that really shook me up was author David Foster Wallace. Brilliant writer, sensitive man, lifelong struggle with depression. When medication, therapy, even ECT had no further effect he found he could no longer write, lost hope, and eventually took his own life.

DFW never lost his "curiosity about the world" (very nice way of putting it) but he did lose his ability to communicate his thoughts and imagine a better future for himself.

"The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.... The only thing that's capital-T True is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't.... The trick is keeping the truth up-front in daily consciousness." -- David Foster Wallace

[Birds]

mahlerfan, on 28 June 2010 - 08:36 AM, said:

Human beings are remarkably resilient so long as they believe things might improve. Every person I ever knew who committed suicide had become convinced that things would never get better.

The last suicide of a public figure that really shook me up was author David Foster Wallace. Brilliant writer, sensitive man, lifelong struggle with depression. When medication, therapy, even ECT had no further effect he found he could no longer write, lost hope, and eventually took his own life.

DFW never lost his "curiosity about the world" (very nice way of putting it) but he did lose his ability to communicate his thoughts and imagine a better future for himself.

"The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.... The only thing that's capital-T True is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't.... The trick is keeping the truth up-front in daily consciousness." -- David Foster Wallace

Very insightful. But the trick it to avoid self-deception. It is the lies we tell ourselves that hurt us the most.

[mahlerfan]

Birds, on 28 June 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

the trick it to avoid self-deception. It is the lies we tell ourselves that hurt us the most.

Agree. The terrible thing about clinical depression is that the brain is hardwired for circular thinking (i.e., reinforces again and again that there are no solutions, perpetuating cognitive dissonance) and therefore tricks the sufferer. If brain chemistry can be stabilized then talk therapy / cognitive therapy can help sufferer end self-deception and learn ways to cope with illness. But when severe depression holds sway there is often no convincing - even if sufferer acknowledges that things will get better he/she feels cycle will only continue to repeat itself and finds this inevitability too much to bear. Hence high incidence of suicide.

[Birds]

mahlerfan, on 28 June 2010 - 12:15 PM, said:

Agree. The terrible thing about clinical depression is that the brain is hardwired for circular thinking (i.e., reinforces again and again that there are no solutions, perpetuating cognitive dissonance) and therefore tricks the sufferer. If brain chemistry can be stabilized then talk therapy / cognitive therapy can help sufferer end self-deception and learn ways to cope with illness. But when severe depression holds sway there is often no convincing - even if sufferer acknowledges that things will get better he/she feels cycle will only continue to repeat itself and finds this inevitability too much to bear. Hence high incidence of suicide.

Yes, true. It is the hit and miss attempts to stabilize the brain chemistry which is so frustrating.

[Sherdelune]

freebird, on 28 June 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

How can you stab yourself 8 times? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning you regarding the facts. There are much easier, less painful ways than that!! I have a very high tolerance for pain but I don't think I could stand the pain of stabbing myself just once, but 8 times? Not a chance.

I have no reason to doubt my friend, but maybe he exaggerated. I don't know. His father was working for HLP at the South Texas Nuclear Project, and there had been some investigation going on regarding finances there. I'm not sure if he was under investigation or not, just that he killed himself.

American poet Frank Stanford killed himself by shooting himself three times in the heart.

Frank Stanford

[TooLate]

Sherdelune, on 28 June 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

American poet Frank Stanford killed himself by shooting himself three times in the heart.

Frank Stanford

Sometimes the body just bounces on. The Australian who was just acquitted by jury of all charges for drugging then repeatedly shooting her husband to death was on telly tonight, complaining about how hard it was to kill him. She said he was like the terminator - she fed him dozens of sedatives in his favorite meal but he still lived so she shot him in the head, still breathing so she had another shot - still breathing - damn as she ran out of bullets and that silencer thing made the gun real heavy but she just knew she had to kill him right and persisted(too dangerous as he'd threatened to kill their kids).
Determination paid off - then she got help from the guys she bought the gun from to dump the body... then confessed a few weeks later after making phoney media pleas for her lost husband to return home or someone to say what had befallen him. Jury took 2 hours to return not guilty of anything so much of a creep was her guy. He'd taken her to graveyards to pick plots for their kids who he planned to kill and asked er to draw lots to chose which one first! Now if only someone had the foresight and fortitude to deal with Manson so efficiently, and early in the piece... such a pity this brave Aussie lass wasn't at hand.

[catscradle77]

Good lord-that would make one helluva movie..

And there was the case of the mother and daughter who spiked the Dad's green jello with LSD. He had heart problems and flipped cuz of the dosing and died.

[Birds]

TooLate, on 29 June 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

Sometimes the body just bounces on. The Australian who was just acquitted by jury of all charges for drugging then repeatedly shooting her husband to death was on telly tonight, complaining about how hard it was to kill him. She said he was like the terminator - she fed him dozens of sedatives in his favorite meal but he still lived so she shot him in the head, still breathing so she had another shot - still breathing - damn as she ran out of bullets and that silencer thing made the gun real heavy but she just knew she had to kill him right and persisted(too dangerous as he'd threatened to kill their kids).
Determination paid off - then she got help from the guys she bought the gun from to dump the body... then confessed a few weeks later after making phoney media pleas for her lost husband to return home or someone to say what had befallen him. Jury took 2 hours to return not guilty of anything so much of a creep was her guy. He'd taken her to graveyards to pick plots for their kids who he planned to kill and asked er to draw lots to chose which one first! Now if only someone had the foresight and fortitude to deal with Manson so efficiently, and early in the piece... such a pity this brave Aussie lass wasn't at hand.

So a man who committed no crime other than talking, who obviously needed the intervention of family to get the mental health care he required, is brutally murdered by said family member. The admitted murderer goes free. Now what were you saying about our justice system?

[TooLate]

Birds, on 29 June 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

So a man who committed no crime other than talking, who obviously needed the intervention of family to get the mental health care he required, is brutally murdered by said family member. The admitted murderer goes free. Now what were you saying about our justice system?

It was the jury - not the system. What was remarkable was her blatant lack of care and frankly gloating post the verdict. But I think this does illustrate the difference between us and Americans - I'm sure in some States the killer would have had no show of a complete acquittal. I'm kind of surprised at the verdict (given the crime facts) but I also understand how Aussies would go for not guilty as we're pretty easy going and don't judge where we can see someone was in a hard situation - manslaughter may have been a fairer outcome if we believe the woman saw no options (which the jury clearly bought). I gues the jury just thought that a m/s call would put her n jail for a couple of years and only punish her children.

[Birds]

TooLate, on 29 June 2010 - 10:08 AM, said:

It was the jury - not the system. What was remarkable was her blatant lack of care and frankly gloating post the verdict. But I think this does illustrate the difference between us and Americans - I'm sure in some States the killer would have had no show of a complete acquittal. I'm kind of surprised at the verdict (given the crime facts) but I also understand how Aussies would go for not guilty as we're pretty easy going and don't judge where we can see someone was in a hard situation - manslaughter may have been a fairer outcome if we believe the woman saw no options (which the jury clearly bought). I gues the jury just thought that a m/s call would put her n jail for a couple of years and only punish her children.

I guess he is out of options too.

[mahlerfan]

TooLate, on 29 June 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

She said he was like the terminator

Beginning to worry, TL - you need to get your mind off Arnold S...

[TooLate]

mahlerfan, on 29 June 2010 - 12:45 PM, said:

Beginning to worry, TL - you need to get your mind off Arnold S...

http://www.heraldsun...x-1225885436934
The killers words not mine - he is pervasive so it's hard. Did I not say some killers seem to have his meme in them, she's my proof. I swear he is responsible for triggering more soiciopaths than the Manson cult. They either think they are a terminator or that they're killing one.

Susan Falls Legal Hubby Killer quote date today;
"It was like, full bottle of sleeping tablets, two bullets to the head and he's still breathing. And I've got nothing left, nothing at all. To me he was like the Terminator."

[Bottledbrunette09]

TooLate, on 29 June 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

http://www.heraldsun...x-1225885436934
The killers words not mine - he is pervasive so it's hard. Did I not say some killers seem to have his meme in them, she's my proof. I swear he is responsible for triggering more soiciopaths than the Manson cult. They either think they are a terminator or that they're killing one.

Susan Falls Legal Hubby Killer quote date today;
"It was like, full bottle of sleeping tablets, two bullets to the head and he's still breathing. And I've got nothing left, nothing at all. To me he was like the Terminator."

Well, if ONE wants to get technical, The Terminator is just a charcter from a movie, unlike Arnold who is a real person, an actor who played the Terminator. So to say Arnold is a Terminator really isn't true, but I can see how people would call him The Terminator. However, I have never thought of Arnold solely as the Terminator since he has been many, many characters over the his history of acting. When I think of Arnold, I think of him more as the character in True Lies or whatever that movie was called. But, that's just me. When I say someone was like a Terminator, I refer to the robot who is a shape changer and can't be destroyed, not Arnold.

[Birds]

Bottledbrunette09, on 30 June 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Well, if ONE wants to get technical, The Terminator is just a charcter from a movie, unlike Arnold who is a real person, an actor who played the Terminator. So to say Arnold is a Terminator really isn't true, but I can see how people would call him The Terminator. However, I have never thought of Arnold solely as the Terminator since he has been many, many characters over the his history of acting. When I think of Arnold, I think of him more as the character in True Lies or whatever that movie was called. But, that's just me. When I say someone was like a Terminator, I refer to the robot who is a shape changer and can't be destroyed, not Arnold.