11 replies to this topic

[BKL1967]

Has anyone found anything new regarding this case? Maybe police reports or the F.I.R.s ( Field Investigation Reports). I know it was stated that every one at the ranch was shocked about this killing then some one asked was every one at the ranch- good question. The F.I.R.s would have whom the officers spoke with at the ranch and what they had to say.

[catscradle77]

I have come up empty so far, but one can never tell.

When I was having a dialogue with Larry Larsen, Sanders PI buddy, I had mentioned the FIR numbers on the one report (not this case) to him. His answer about those were the fact that more than likely those types of things were kept in the officers notebooks etc and were probably destroyed by now.

When I enquired about his/Sanders files on the TLB he said that he had destroyed them as well. Do I buy this? Probably not.

Looking into the Second Jane Doe case that Bobby was a suspect in, I had a brief, albeit still a dialogue with the FBI agent who was looking into the case at the time. When I asked about case files and such, he stated that he really couldnt discuss much about it, nor provide files etc., for the case was still open, though a "cold" one.

So I would imagine that any info on the Walts murder would be limited due to the open status of the case.

[BKL1967]

Cats, I was wondering about that second Jane Doe but I did not see her on the board. Maybe you could find her number (i.e. Jane Doe 59) and start a tread. Looking at the Jane Doe 59 tread here it looks as though there is some confusion on the information regarding the two, some post seem to be referring to the unnumbered Jane Doe or second Jane Doe. Also in the pursuit of the truth, shouldn't the names of "possible Manson related deaths", that have been solved and found to have been committed by some one else be moved some where. It seems by still referring to them as possible Manson related, the air of myth and falsehoods are permitted to exist and for those looking for the truth we should squash all untruths when found. Just a suggestion.

[catscradle77]

Here is the thread on the second Bobby related (maybe) jane Doe:

http://truthontatela...hp?topic=3827.0

Okay, will look at the related deaths-good point-which ones do you think should be moved?

[catscradle77]

Or perhaps a sub-category of sorts-to keep them as possible manson related, but proven otherwise. That way, we can debunk them and place them somewhere else, where it shows they have been debunked...

Does that make sense?

But what to call it?

[gerard]

regarding something 'new', are there any updates on Share's book or the Tom Murphy bio?

[BKL1967]

The two names that should be removed from the "Possible Manson Related Deaths" are Deborah Furlong and Kathy Snoozy. Karl Werner confessed and went to prison for those murders. And to where these should be moved I guess under " Other Suspicious Deaths"  but that still hints at a Manson connection. Since I think it would be safe to say the reason these murders are brought up in conversations about Manson is because we read them in the books, so with that in mind I think it would be appropriate to place them under the "Writers of the TBL", start a new thread; "Murders Mentioned by Authors". I hope you will take this into consideration, Thank You.

[BKL1967]

Cats, Also on the F.I.R.s being thrown away, I really find that hard to believe, reason being as you state they are the reporting officers personal notes that include his personal observations, things that don't end up in the official reports. In open cases and especially cold cases this is the raw data the original officers leave for those that follow him, yes he probably takes it with him but I'm sure he stashes it some place. Those notes/ F.I.R.'s are filled with the people he talked to, what impressions he got from those people, his train of thought, this is invaluable to other officers that may investigating a case 20,30, or even 40 years down the road, it allows the new officer to see what direction the original investigating officer went and why and also what direction or leads were not taken and for what reasons. Officers personal feelings and speculations are usually not in the official reports and for obvious reason, we only need to look back at the O.J. Simpson trial. If an officers states something to the effect that he had a bad feeling about a suspect on first impression all a defense lawyer has to point out is that officer went after his client because of some manner which the reporting officer personally did not like prior to any evidence being collected. In the Simpson trial this was overly apparent, the police knew they had their man in Simpson, their ways of collecting the evidence became sloppy and less that professional to say the lease and Simpson's attorneys jumped on them and we know how that story ended. And before anybody has a melt down it was not so much that his attorneys were high priced top gun lawyers any lawyers worth their weight in salt would have jumped on such blatant half-assed police work. On the other hand officers know this and that is why they keep personal notes, they can share officer to officer, they have that shared training they know what to look for.  An officer can sit on the stand and say; with my training I thought the suspect was evasive or uncooperative and this lead me to further investagate the suspect. He can't sit there and say ; well when I first contacted the suspect I thought he was a dirt bag right there; but he could and would put it in his personal notes. And one officer to another even many years down the road understand that and in cold cases would need to know the mind set of the original investigating officer, therefore I just find it unimaginable that any thing related to these cases would just be thrown away, especially if these unsolved murders end up being connected to Manson.

[catscradle77]

Okay but with moving them to the Authors section-it doesnt really cover the fact the cops looked at the Family too as suspects in it, but it turned into someone else. Buglisi had them as suspects in at least 31 other murders or something.

I can make a whole new category-along the lines of "The list of 31 murders -debunked" or if someone can come up with a new name, a better one I shall call it that.

Superspade aka William Thomas, should be moved as well. It is only there because I believe Sanders mentioned that Charlie said something along the lines of the King of Hearts killing the King of Spades and it was said to have been Superspade. But it isnt.

[BKL1967]

You have a point about the police looking at the Manson crew as suspects but I think some of it purely was on the hope they did not have alot of knife welding slashers roaming around. Also with any murders committed in 1969 you have the unexplainable increase of murder in California, the population growth for California wasn't out of line with previous years; growth in population = growth in crime,  but in California in 1969 the population growth had slowed compared to 1964-1966 but the number of murders in 1969 had the largest jump in decades. Here are the numbers  according to the Uniform Crime Report:  1965: pop- 18,602,000 approx.- murders 880, 1966: 18,918,000 approx. - murders 868, 1967: pop 19,153,000 approx. - murders 1,039, 1968: 19,211,000 approx. - murders 1,150, 1969: 19,443,000 approx.- murders 1,386 ( a increase of over 200 from the previous year), 1970: pop- 19,953,143 - murders 1,376 ( the first decrease since 1961). Thus with the population increase in line with previous years, you can take an educated guess at what the % of the new population will contain violent criminals but when the murder rate spikes so out of line you have to look at the pool of already known murderers. Then you add MO ( multiple stab wounds) you once again narrow the pool. So, I guess what I am trying to say is the police had an over abundance of cases and were short on suspects, the MO fit with some but was there any tangable evidence. I love the idea of the new category " 31 murders- debunked", pretty clever.

[catscradle77]

Then it shall be.  ;D

[saintpat]

I'm really interested in learning more about this murder in particular.

Police came to Spahn Ranch asking questions about it. And that was before the 'Manson Family' had any stigma. Sure, after Hinman and TLB, it makes sense for law enforcement to see if there are any ties to a lot of unsolved killings around that area, or that had elements that might be similar or ties to anyone in the family ... but this was before.

I understand the guy hung out there sometimes. Was there any other reason police were looking around there on this case?