Jay Sebring learned martial arts from Bruce Lee, or so it is told. So he would have get at least a basic skills ofr fighting and overcoming someone who hold a knife upon him. When Susan Atkins came to the bedroom where he and Sharon talked, he probably didn't know how many intruders were in the house if any. Susan came into the bedroom alone. She only had a knife - not too big with her. Why then didn't Jay charge her and took the knife from her? It might have change the situation if at least one of the attacker was nueatralized at that stage, and if Jay woould have come with a knife, it would have probably surprise Tex and give WP enought time to charge Tex from behind and the two of them could have neutralize him and Pat. What do you think? I already took off the possibility he was afraid to Sharon, because he saw only one girl, even though she wasn't small (at 1.70m she is quite tall).
[quote author=Eran link=topic=3109.msg26078#msg26078 date=1216893017] Jay Sebring learned martial arts from Bruce Lee, or so it is told. So he would have get at least a basic skills ofr fighting and overcoming someone who hold a knife upon him. When Susan Atkins came to the bedroom where he and Sharon talked, he probably didn't know how many intruders were in the house if any. Susan came into the bedroom alone. She only had a knife - not too big with her. Why then didn't Jay charge her and took the knife from her? It might have change the situation if at least one of the attacker was nueatralized at that stage, and if Jay woould have come with a knife, it would have probably surprise Tex and give WP enought time to charge Tex from behind and the two of them could have neutralize him and Pat. What do you think? I already took off the possibility he was afraid to Sharon, because he saw only one girl, even though she wasn't small (at 1.70m she is quite tall). [/quote] There are a lot of possibilities - It's one thing to have an indeterminate amount of martial arts training and something quite different to have a weapon being held against you (or a friend). Perhaps there was no real sense of danger. Wasn't it written somewhere that Abigail Folger waved? If you see a strange person, dressed in dark clothes, carrying a knife and walking down your hallway after you've retired for the evening, do you wave? Do you panic? Do you demand an explanation? Was Sebring advised there were only two teen-age girls and one male in the house, armed with a ragtag collection of knives and a revolver with a history of mis-firing? Or was he told there were more people there, that already had the others under their control? (This has always raised a lot of questions for me - the killers went to the house to kill everyone there with a questionable firearm and a knife with no handle? What about all the knives others said they were purchasing? What about the other firearms that were seized in the raid?) Who is WP???
I've wondered about this too, but there are several options to think about (most of which Mike has already mentioned) Think of it this way: what if you were just sitting around talking to a friend and someone came in and pointed a knife at you? Logically, you'd be so stunned that you probably couldn't react. It's easy for us to say that other things could have been done as we're looking at something that already happened. I'm guessing that he probably figured that they were just going to be robbed by this young girl and it didn't seem like anything to over-react about. Plus, he probably didn't want to scare Sharon anymore than she already was. Could he have defended himself? Sure, but I just don't think he knew they were in such danger yet. I don't think Jay had any inkling of any danger at the time he saw Susan or, as I said before, they were in shock. Wasn't it said that when they entered the living room, Jay and Sharon both looked to be in shock? While I'm certainly not blaming anyone, I've often wondered if it would've made a difference if Frykowski had yelled? At least the other 3 might've run out of Sharon's bedroom door and, in the confusion, maybe he would've been able to escape too. At least they would've had a chance since they all could've gone in different directions. This is just another one of those things we'll never know.
well, unless physical confrontations are a regular part of your life, the mind and body's natural instinct is the fight-or-flight instinct. this causes hesitation. i teach self defense, and that's the first and largest obstacle my students have to overcome. much as i rever bruce lee, martial arts training is a lot different from self defense. in martial arts, there are time-outs and tap-outs, in self defense we teach more reality-based scenarios. your opponent or opponents could be armed (we always assume so), they will have friends there, they will be bigger, stronger, faster, etc. worst case scenarios. and all the training in the world doesn't get you ready for having a gun pointed in your face. i've had that happen to me more than once, and i don't care how badass you think you are, it'll sober you up right quick. ok, sorry for the ramble ;D personally, i think jay was more concerned about anything happening to sharon than saving his own neck.
I couldn't agree more Ace. Jay was what 5"6, Tex is 6"2. Tex has a gun, Jay doesn't. And the biggie (to me) knives are being pointed at Sharon & Gibby. He was probably afraid that if he made a move, the ladies would have been stabbed. Also, if the killers are to be believed, Jay was taken out very early in the process.
if it weren't for the chivalry factor, and i'm not being sarcastic there, i believe sebring could've defended himself just fine. tex supposedly had a smattering of karate training at spahn's, but that is no match for the dedication it would take to be one of lee's students.
and correct me if I am wrong but I think they found drugs in Jay's system... so that might have slowed down the whole response mechanism.
[quote author=Jean Harlow link=topic=3109.msg26144#msg26144 date=1216929691] and correct me if I am wrong but I think they found drugs in Jay's system... so that might have slowed down the whole response mechanism. [/quote] I think you're right Jean. I do believe that Sebring had coke in his system, add the shock, and I don't think there was much that he could do.
very true....and then add in the wanting to make sure he did nothing that would get the women hurt, and it was a no-win deal for him. poor guy.
[quote author=Uncle Ace link=topic=3109.msg26140#msg26140 date=1216928206] and all the training in the world doesn't get you ready for having a gun pointed in your face. i've had that happen to me more than once, and i don't care how badass you think you are, it'll sober you up right quick.[/quote] It's amazing how a .22 barrel can suddenly look as big as a subway tunnel, isn't it?
I'd say Ace it it on the head. A military or law enforcement person may have reacted differently. Coupled with MDA, liquor and whatever else... But his actions were noble. How does it go? No greater love has man than to lay down his life for another(?)....I just hope Sharon has realize that where ever they are.
I thought I'd read that no drugs (or was it just a trace?) were found in his system?? Has anyone seen his autopsy report? If so, where is it? I'd like to see it. I remember Dominick Dunne saying that Jay was perfectly capable of defending himself, but not against a gun or a knife. I just admire him for doing what he did. He told Tex a thing or two and, even after he was threatened, he still opened his yapper when Tex was being mean to Sharon. Good for him!! Didn't he and Tex get into a struggle? Where did I read that Jay had Tex's hand pinned on something and that's how they got a finger-print?
[quote author=Georgiapeach link=topic=3109.msg26190#msg26190 date=1217010085] I thought I'd read that no drugs (or was it just a trace?) were found in his system?? Has anyone seen his autopsy report? If so, where is it? I'd like to see it. I remember Dominick Dunne saying that Jay was perfectly capable of defending himself, but not against a gun or a knife. I just admire him for doing what he did. He told Tex a thing or two and, even after he was threatened, he still opened his yapper when Tex was being mean to Sharon. Good for him!! Didn't he and Tex get into a struggle? Where did I read that Jay had Tex's hand pinned on something and that's how they got a finger-print? [/quote] Tex's only usable print was on the front door.
Didn't he and Tex get into a struggle? Where did I read that Jay had Tex's hand pinned on something and that's how they got a finger-print? Tex's only usable print was on the front door. Yeah, I've heard that, but I can't remember where I read that there was another print. Maybe that's what the problem was?? (that it wasn't usable) I don't know....I've read so much through the years that it's hard to remember everything.
[quote author=Jean Harlow link=topic=3109.msg26195#msg26195 date=1217017924] I think it mentions that Jay had drugs in his system in Helter Skelter... [/quote]I'll have to look at my copy of the book, I haven't looked at it in quite awhile so I don't remember seeing that in there.
[quote author=ecnivb link=topic=3109.msg26145#msg26145 date=1216929853] [quote author=Jean Harlow link=topic=3109.msg26144#msg26144 date=1216929691] and correct me if I am wrong but I think they found drugs in Jay's system... so that might have slowed down the whole response mechanism. [/quote] I think you're right Jean. I do believe that Sebring had coke in his system, add the shock, and I don't think there was much that he could do. [/quote] I would have thought having coke in your system would make you respond faster? x
