What did she mean when she said that?

Discussion in 'Abigail Folger' started by Mike, Aug 28, 2010.

  1. Mike Well-Known Member

    Abigail Folger's last words to Patricia Krenwinkel.

    I was watching all the Manson programs on Biography last evening and at one point Krenwinkel was talking about Abigail Folger's alleged last words, "I'm already dead."

    Me being the stubborn one who struggles with Bugliosi's tale of Helter Skelter, I sat and thought about this some more.

    What did Folger mean?

    She knew she wasn't dead, so why did she say she was? Did she honestly feel the savage butchering her was going to stop, if she admitted her own death? "OK, I'm dead now, so will you please quit stabbing me?"

    Or was her statement a figure of speech?

    As soon as my family finds out I've been using their money to support a drug dealer, I might as well be dead. As soon as our connections discover you've taken their money, I might as well be dead. As soon as our connections discover you've taken their drugs, I will be as good as dead. When Roman Polanski discovers what we were doing here in his home, I am as good as dead.

    Yes, I might be reading too much into such a simple statement, but it certainly was a curious thing for her to have said.

    What are your thoughts?
  2. aliceathome Member

    I think that when you're being stabbed to death it's unlikely you're referring to anything other than the immediate event to be honest.
    JeniferF, andy and coonhound like this.
  3. JHarper Member

    God and Abagail only know what was going on in her mind at the time. Having no experience, yet, of being stabbed to death, I have no idea what I would say at that moment. Perhaps she knew that she was dying and just wanted it over it to stop the pain.
  4. Bottledbrunette09 Well-Known Member

    That is one interesting question, Mr. Mike. I don't know if I really thought about it as you have. It is a curious statement full of all sorts of implications-or not. My initial thought would be that the overkill and frenzied stabbing was too much horror for her and she could of been tired of fighting back, so she wanted it to stop, so she said, "I'm dead already." I'm surprised she could say anything at all. But then, she could of been thinking of after her death was discovered, all the stuff you mentioned was going to happen, fortunately for her, the Folgers covered up as much as they could and thus, protected her from what she was fearing would happen afterwards.

    I can't wait to read more answers to your questions, and see where this might lead. This sounds like this could be a really interesting thread.
  5. catscradle77 Administrator

    If I was being stabbed to death, and I knew basically (after watching everyone else get slain) than my time was done and over, being in a lot of pain, I dont think I would ask them to stop. I would want them to continue and get it over with.

    But that is easy to say, sitting in my house, all safe and sound and not a care in the world.

    And at that point, how would someones mind be functioning? I think rational thought left out the door that Tex et al entered.
    Cheyenne likes this.
  6. ZOOM71 Guest

    I don't know when she exactly said "I'm already dead" but I assume it was after Krenwinkel plunged her knife into Abigail few times. It's like "How many more times are you going to stab me?" I don't think, at that point, I would be mulling over whether or not I was a good person because had I dabbled into drugs.
    JeniferF likes this.
  7. Bottledbrunette09 Well-Known Member

    LOL! You are probably right about whether or not she was thinking she was a good person who messed around in drugs, but you know, you never know.....Who knows what hundreds of things are going through your mind as you are being killed other than trying to save your life. Since, hopefully, none of us will ever find out, I think that its just a mystery. She might of been thinking of her family's shame while she was being killed, she might not have been. She might of been amazed that Katie and Tex and who knows, maybe Sadie and Linda, kept stabbing her and she couldn't believe that they wouldn't stop. She might of been trying to fling herself over the fence and down the steep hill or she could of been trying to get to William Garretson to save her when she was sidelined by Katie, we just don't know what she was thinking of doing. When I thought I was going to be killed in a car accident when my son was driving us home from his divorce lawyer and he was pissed, all sorts of things were going through my mind the whole time we were on the highway coming perioulsy close to death many, many times because he was so angry and not paying attention to what he was doing. Granted, knife wielding nutjobs were stabbing me, but I really thought we were going to be killed that day, both of us. I cried all day when we got home, I was so scared. Point is, I was thinking all sorts of things.
  8. Mike Well-Known Member

    I agree with what everyone is saying, but one would think she would have been saying something along the lines of, "Please stop hurting me."

    Sharon Tate was begging for her life and the life of her baby. Jay Sebring was trying to protect Tate. Voytek Frykowski died trying to pull himself to safety. Steven Parent told Watson not to hurt him, that he was Watson's friend. Rosemary LaBianca was trying to get away to see what the killers had done to her husband. I think it's the survival instinct born into nearly all of us.

    Abigail Folger said she was already dead? "Go ahead and kill someone else, I'm already dead, so you can stop wasting your energy on me." A philanthropist to her last dying breath, aye? It's just puzzling. Which really makes it no different than a score of other aspects about the murders.
  9. ZOOM71 Guest

    You know Cats, I've often imagined what if Abigail had made it to that fence and rolled down that steep hill. At least she would have gotten away, or maybe not . Going down an embankment and losing someone behind you with a knife is a far better chance than the alternative.
  10. richko62 Member

    All we have is Krenwinkel's statement what Folgers last words were. Krenwinkel could be lying, she could have misunderstood the screams of a her bloody dying victim. I have a hard time believing anything the killers say without some other corroboration.
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  11. freebird Donating Members

    I remember reading somewhere that Folger said "Take me, I'm already dead". I understood that to mean she knew she would die from the wounds she already received and to just get it over with. In other words, "I give up, take me out" when she realised she wasn't going to make it to the fence line. :shrug2:
    The sad part is like ZOOM71's comment, she damn near made it to the fence and possible freedom. She could have lived had she rolled down the hill. Not that living with those memories would be a cake walk. Talk about PTSD!!!
    ayden2000 likes this.
  12. Dilligaf Donating Members

    I have thought about this before posting, and I find myself going back to richko62's point. We do not know what, if anything, that AF said, so it is a little bit suspect to say the least. I have seen enough suffering throughout the years from victims that you always hope that their demise, though unfortunate, is quick and as painfree as possible. Though I have a jaded heart and may sometimes come across as abrupt, short, or uncaring, it is not by design, but by experience. If AF had made it over the fence, I would still pray for a quick demise with minimal suffering.

    Something that many people do not realize is that both members of our military (Hi Son, hope you are safe, Airborne!!!) and members of LE are trained to survive mentally, even if they have sustained a life ending injury. They are trained to fight until they can no longer proetect themselves and others. That is a level of psychological training that most of us do not ever have to endure or even think about. If AF did make that statement, I can only hope that mentally she resigned herself to her ultimate demise and as a result, did not feel the physical suffering that she endured.
    Endoracat likes this.
  13. TooLate Active Member

    I believe she was simply acknowledging her predicament to herself and her assailant. A sad farewell to the agent of death and a kind of WTF just hit me statement all in one.
  14. tremain Member

    Agreed, how was she to know? Would her words be audible? When Krenwinkle is describing it in an interview, she almost whispers the words (I cannot STAND her speaking voice BTW). Someone being stabbed to death I imagine would be screaming bloody murder
  15. Self Titled New Member

    I've always found this dying quote to be a particularly interesting aspect of the case, because it seems to be a recurring theme. Abigail utters "I'm already dead" to her killers. Manson testified at trial (outside the presence of the jury) with a rather famous line that "You want to kill me? I'm already dead, have been all my life." He repeated this line in a Rolling Stone interview. Meanwhile, Van Houton's plea for release is that Rosemary was already dead when she inflicted her share of the savagery.
  16. Peaches Donating Members

    Very interesting thoughts and posts. Another thought is the supposed light that people see when they're dying. I wonder if she could've been heading towards that light and, therefore, she knew she WAS dying and that's why she said it.
  17. Attyla Member

    it was night, how many times in my life have i substituted sleepy and dead....maybe taht is it :hijacked:
  18. CanuckCeeDee Well-Known Member

    I don't think we'll ever know, and, as someone else pointed out, we only have Katie's word for it that Abigail said anything at all -- and if Katie looked at my watch and told me the time, I'd still check it.

    While I can't say for sure, as I've never been, and hopefully never will be, in the position Abigail was in that night, I would venture that by the time she made the break from the living room she was pretty well beyond anything that could be considered coherent thought. Her face had been opened up from below her left eye to the corner of her mouth; she had been stabbed multiple times in the abdomen, she had watched Jay go down and Voytek make a break for it, and was probably out of her mind with fear and pain, not to mention considerable blood loss. It was likely that the only "thought" in her mind was to get away from the person who was stabbing her -- pure "fight or flight" reaction that doesn't really require thought as we understand it.

    Personally, I tend to side with those who've posted that she knew she was dying, and had probably sustained eventually fatal injuries; if she did indeed say, "I'm already dead", it was probably a plea for Katie and Tex to stop stabbing her and let her bleed to death quietly.

    What a horrifying thought.
  19. TooLate Active Member

    Well now others have highlighted the Mansonite death theme in their philosophy I recall they thought outsiders were dead (spiritually)or needed to give up their ego. It could be that the tale was retold so as to be a projection of the killers beliefs onto the victim. And then believed after much retelling that way in Pats head ie the killers thought of outsiders as dead already, they themselves wanted to kill their egos and help others to kill theirs. It may have been wishful thinking that Gibby said that as it would assuage the possibility of guilt if Pat reinforced to herself she was just helpfully delivering the victims to an ego less state, in the same manner that CM often tried to do to Mansonites - using the face your fears technique eg will you die for me.
    Remember Susan early on believed the killers only freed the victims from the illusion of death. Often in nuts mind maps there is a structure or cohesiveness to the whole muddle.
  20. Bottledbrunette09 Well-Known Member

    Heavy, man, heavy. :peace:

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