Hiking to the 5 can be done from the Los Feliz area where the La Bianca's lived. If one goes by sound at night, you can find the 5. You have to go over some walls, private and state, get into a gully and then trek through some cut barbed wire fences and on the other side of some hills is the 5. You are correct, Mike, it can be done, it is logical. But for some reason, I just did not think the hit squad would be capable of doing it... Why? I just do not see the killers as V. Bugs portrays them. I think of the Manson girls and guys as not being that analytical or prepared. Did they have flashlights on them at Waverly, they did not at Cielo. More importantly for some reason that I can not really put my finger on it, the Family did not strike me as having the moxy to hike it to the 5 by way of cross country at night. Yes, after the murder they were without transport and they were not seen walking out of Los Feliz, so the cross country night hike is the best logical answer. On the freeway they got a lift. I know they lived like urban nomads (Manson group), but they never struck as tough pioneer types. Also in 1969, the police tended to target thumbing groups that was made up of hippy women. Police of that era, liked searching and enforcing the law when it came to pretty-sexy hippie girls. I would have thought a CHIPs or local officer would have likely seen this group on whatever freeway or road that they were on, because it was very late and the LAPD was out in numbers after what happened at the Tate house, the night before. So many things about Waverly and Cielo just do not make sense to me.
the la bianca's returned home the daughter was with her boyfriend? and where was the son? and who brought him home? and what time did he return home? and what was the time span between the killers leaving and the son getting home?
Snow said: the la bianca's returned home the daughter was with her boyfriend? and where was the son? and who brought him home? and what time did he return home? and what was the time span between the killers leaving and the son getting home? The son came home, dropped off by friends; he sensed something was wrong as things weren't as they should have been in the driveway. He called hsi sister (presumably from a payphone), she turned up with boyfriend, Joe Dorgan, who went inside to investigate ... Length of time between murderers leaving and bodies being discovered would be about 10 - 12 hours. This is off the top of my head, so forgive me any mistakes.
ok im confused, what night did the la biancas return from the lake? was it late in the evening? they read or herd about the murders on there way home didnt they stop to get paper and somthing was said about the murders? if it was the night they where murdered(later that evening) and the killers left if the boy came home and discovered 10-12 hrs later wouldnt it have been in the afternoon?if the killers lets say left at 3am 10-12 hrs later they would have been discovered between 1-3 in the afternoon not at night? please forgive if im mistaken.
The Labiancas, by all accounts, returned to LA around 2:00 a.m on the morning of the 10th which was a Sunday. They must have picked up an early print of the LA Sunday times because it's impossible for the Tate murders to have made the Saturday newspaper since the bodies were discovered that day, the 9th which is actualy 43 years ago right about now. The Saturday newspaper would have already been delivered. As a matter of fact, the paper boy had delivered the edition to Cielo. It was part of the timeline in HS. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I think I remember that Frank Struthers, Rosemary's son, was dropped of late morning of the 10th.
ok, so sometime after 2am the killings took place( thank god the son stayed at the lake) can anyone give an educated guess on how long it took from the time the killers entered, killed, showered, ate a snack, and left? i guess im not getting the time frame of when the son got home. ok early the morning of the 10th. i dont know about calf. but where i live, in aug., the sun comes up around 6:30 - 7 ish it wasnt daylight when the kids found the bodies it was still dark. and when did the daughter return, did she even go to the lake ? the reason i am asking is i dont believe it was by chance they picked that house. i still have some questions about her, but not now.
Hi Snow. I don't remember when the bodies were found. My memory isn't what it used to be...too much aspartame in the 1980s I think. I believe that the killers arrived not long after the Labiancas arrived home. Leno was in his pyjamas on the sofa, reading the newspaper he had just picked up and Rosemary was in the bedroom getting ready for bed when Charlie entered to tie them up. I'm guessing that the murders went off quickly just as they did at Cielo but with much less chaos. There were only two victims at Waverley versus the five at Cielo and they were contained to two rooms on the house with no one being able to make it for a chase outside like at Cielo. My thoughts are that they were in an out of Waverley within an hour, an hour and a half, including showers and "snacks" -- watermelon for one, to allude to the fact that is was the "black man" who had committed the murders since apparently Black Americans are the ONLY people who enjoy watermelon...I'm not a Black American and I LOVE watermelon. Anyway, I digress...if I had my copy of HS handy, I would be able to confirm the time of discovery. Anyone else hear know????
ok, i do have to ask, how long have the labiancas lived in that house before the murders? did the daughter live at home or on her own? and it seems strange that the kids after finding there dad didnt go look for the mother. maybe they thought the killers where still there i dont know. was this a blended family, the son was the mothers child, was susan the fathers daughter? or where they both hers? the killers went to tate house because they knew the layout(bullcrap) apparently they knew the layout of the labiancas house to(the screw house). i had read HS and took it at face value, reading this forum that account just adds up to crap.
The Labiancas were indeed a blended family. Frank and Susan Struthers are Rosemary's children from her first marriage. Leno also had children from his first marriage but they didn't live with he and Rosemary. As far as I know, Susan lived with her boyfriend. I don't believe that Frank entered the house when he was dropped off on the Sunday. He noticed that the boat was still tied to the car and the the blinds were still drawn. The boat was the clue to him that something might have been wrong, since Leno, his step-father, was known to be meticulous about removing the boat from its tow to the car and storing it. He went to a pay phone and called his sister at her boyfriend's place and Susan and Joe arrived not much later. From my memory, Joe and Frank entered the house while Susan remained outside. This is when they discovered the bodies. I'm not sure if Susan ever even entered the house. She had her own set of problems later in life. She became Suzanne LaBerge, a HUGE supporter of Tex Watson, the very man who killed her step-father and mother, and actually appeared at one of his parole hearings to plead for his release alongside Doris Tate who was there on Sharon's behalf to speak against his release. There was an exchange between the two women before and after the hearing which you can find on YOUTUBE. They were quite funny and you see Doris at her best. I believe that Susan became one of those 700 Club born-agains and visited Tex in prison. BIZARRE!!!!
P.S. Of the killers at Cielo, at least Tex, for certain, knew the layout of Cielo because it is fact that he was up there on a few occasions, one of them to drive Terry Melcher home from Spahn. Whether he just knew what the property looked like or whether he intimately knew the layout and could cover it, well that is one of the debates that seems to go on and on and on..
Actually Frank Struthers was dropped off at night(approximately 8:30pm), not the morning, of Aug 10, 1969. Helter Skelter Pg 53 (paperback)
Thanks Coonhound...I left my copy of HS in my desk at school. Memory not so good these days...menopause/aspartame/alcohol....
Responding to an idea a few posts back, I have to say, I think Mike is right about Kasabian. My dollars are on her and Bugliosi making that story up: but only in order to make her look more innocent. With her at Cielo - but not supposedly participating - that isn't enough to separate her from the rest of the gang. So the Nader thing helps with that. Vince can show poor Linda still scared to do anything violent, so she acts out like she's going to kill someone and deliberately goes to the wrong door. And I also believe Waverly had a deliberate motive. Personally, me thinks RL was dealing and Tex wanted to rob them. I know there's no evidence, but it's just a gut feeling based on Tex being a criminal who was into drugs and stealing drugs... like Lotsapoppa. I don't think Krenwinkel or Van Houten, like Atkins the night before, really understood why they were going - except they were to listen to Tex. And as far as I'm concerned, the stories of both nights of murder and mayhem - in so far as who did what to whom and when - are very suspect. It seems the more time goes by, the more I seem to think Tex killed everybody, with Manson being sort of this well, 'you do what you think you have to do' guy, but being the ultimate puppet master of the girls. So much of the stories have changed or modified that I can almost believe the girls got themselves into such a jam with their crazy willingness to keep Manson free, that they admitted to doing things they never did, like the Atkins dental floss thing on Hinman. Yeah, it's a scary story, but come on; nothing in the autopsy about that. Or her bragging about how she stabbed Tate and called her a bitch; yeah. Tex said she didn't stab Sharon. Then, Tex said Leslie definitely didn't kill Rosemary the next night either, and was panicked and wouldn't have done anything unless he made her do it. Only Krenwinkel - the Bonnie to his Clyde - performed robotic-like those two nights. And Kasabian gets a pass because she was willing to turn state's witness because Bug realized no one had their eyes on her outside; meanwhile Sharon's blood and Jay's blood is outside the house.
Grogan wasn't along on the first night, therefore, he could say he didn't know what was going to happen at the LaBiancas. Atkins could not. They had nothing on Grogan. Not saying that I buy Kasabian's reason for being along on both nights (license), but if Charlie's license was valid until November 12, then why was he ticketed for not having a license on August 7, 1969 while traveling with Stephanie Schram? He left it back at the ranch?
I bet it was lost but was somewhere at the ranch. Something tells me that: A. Manson was not dutifully responsible when deciding to go for a drive somewhere. I can't imagine him saying, "Damn, I forgot my license; got to get it before I leave!" And... B. The ranch was not the most organized place in the world. Just going out on a limb there...
Of course Rosemary was dealing. You have to have Rosemary dealing and Leno owing money to the Mafia in order to make the murders all about Linda & Tex.
