I've been giving a lot of thought to the murder of the LaBiancas over the last couple days. I've always wondered what that was all about, because it was so different from the other murders. Killers don't kill over drugs one day and global race wars the day after that. Unless they are contract killers and the collective criminal intelligence at Spahn Ranch pretty much takes that off the table. There are so many questions that go unanswered. Susan Atkins was in the car that evening. She was charged for the murders of the LaBiancas, was tried, was found guilty and was sentenced. Steve Grogan was in the same car as Susan Atkins, the same evening. Steve Grogan was never charged with the LaBianca murders. What was that all about? Here's one that might get you thinking a bit. Manson leaves Watson, Krenwinkel and Van Houten at the LaBianca residence. He, Kasabian, Atkins and Grogan end up, some 19 miles away, deposting Rosemary LaBianca's wallet in the tank of a service station restroom. That mileage figure is assuming they took the most direct route, getting on I-5 near Griffith Park and driving north to Sylmar. From there, they were within 14 miles of Spahn Ranch, again assuming the most direct route - dropping back down the 5 to the 118 and heading west to Topanga Canyon Boulevard and jumping off it onto Santa Susana Pass Road. But Kasabian says Manson asked her about a "piggy" she knew. So she told him about Saladin Nader, who lived in Venice Beach. Assuming the most direct route, down the 5 to the 405, they drove approximately 30 miles to Venice Beach, allegedly trying to find someone else they could kill. I guess that means there were no "piggies" in Granada Hills, Van Nuys, Sherman Oaks, Encino, Beverly Hills or Santa Monica and they had to drive all the way down to Venice. Why drive the 19 miles to Sylmar, then drive all the way back down to Venice, instead of just driving the 26 miles, directly to Venice? There were plenty of "ethnic" neighborhoods between Griffith Park and Venice. I know, it was 1969 and gas was cheap, but instead of driving to Venice (26 miles), Manson drove to Sylmar (19 miles), then back down to Venice (30 miles) to find someone to kill? In Sylmar, he was within 14 miles of home, but he drove back down to Venice, leaving him another approximate 30 mile drive back to Spahn? And why is it that we didn't hear any of that in Atkins' grand jury testimony? She was throwing Manson under the bus, so what was one more failed murder attempt going to cost anyone? I'm not trying to suggest Kasabian was trying to help Bugliosi squeeze Manson, but what if Kasabian was trying to help Bugliosi squeeze Manson? You look at the map and make up your own minds. Me? I thinks something smells funny.
I think Mark Ross' house was also in Venice, CA near Nader's.......association of ideas from one to the another may explain it....like True lived near the LaBianca's........also, two of the Family (women) were with Nader and knew his place........I would hypothecate.....or speculate that familiarity with the area and even person had something to do with the decision to go there... I don't know why Atkins never mentioned the Nader episode in her grand jury testimony......Atkins also did not report Tex shooting Frykowski in her Grand Jury test. or having the dialogue the Kasabian ("make it stop, etc.").......Do you think the story about Nader was made up by Kasabian? Kasabian's testimony through Bugliosi's interrogation plus her testimony under cross-examination was effective......Atkins, Krenwinkel, Watson, Van Houten, and Manson had the book thrown at them and were slated for an appearance in the 'Green Room'.... How Grogan didn't have additional charges...........I don't know.....
Yes Ross's house was in Venice on Clubhouse Drive, along with the headquarters of the Straight Satans. (appears to be a few houses down) Just to go off on a tangent, if Dorgan was a Straight Satan (unproven) and he was involved with Suzan it could explain alot. But Joe was in the apartment (address help here) with Suzan when Frank Jr. called. None of those kids asked about Rosemary. She had a dress over her nightie. Her keys and purse were in her car. The driving makes no sense. If there were enough piggies on the road to attempt to get like the people at the light..then Mike's point of there being no piggies in between rings valid.
Was Mark Ross involved at that early date? For some reason, I'm thinking Ross came after the arrests. Did Kasabian make up the story? Did Kasabian make up the story with Bugliosi's help? Who knows? I just find it hard to believe they drove north to Sylmar to leave Rosemary LaBianca's wallet in a black neighborhood that wasn't predominately black and then drove south to Venice to allegedly kill Nader. Think about it. Kasabian said Manson asked about her knowing a "piggy" down that way. She said she did. Uhhhhh, Nader was living in an apartment in Venice, so they drove past all the "real" movie stars' homes in Beverly Hills to get to the apartment home of an actor that had starred in one, Lebanese film? Manson likely had as much money in his pocket as Nader. Show of hands, how many of you have actually seen The Broken Wings? I'm not sticking up for Manson, I think he's better off and we're better off with him in prison. But what was really gained by the Nader story? Almost as if Manson wasn't enough of a scoundrel for being present while the LaBiancas were tied up, so let's weave a story about him wanting to kill another "piggy", who really wasn't. Bugliosi knew he had a thin case against Manson, so he had to dig hard to get enough dirt. And if Manson had dug his head out of that dark, moist spot where he's wedged it, things might have turned out quite differently. I've said it before, but I see Manson as a loser. This guy couldn't send a letter with short postage and avoid a federal prison term for it. People constantly call him a mastermind? What a hoot. He's a loser. He never got away with anything in his life and he often served huge sentences for petty crimes. And look at the chump, serving a life sentence for murder. Who did Manson murder? If he had kept his glory-seeking mouth shut, he would have walked on Shea. There was no physical evidence he had anything to do with Shea. The butchers all testified Manson was not at Cielo. They all testified he left Waverly, prior to the blood-letting. They all testified he was not present when Hinman was killed. Who did Manson killl? Nary a soul. But he walked into that courtroom thinking he could scam the State of California the same way he could scam 14 year-old girls and Bugliosi played him like a drum. The question someone needs to ask Manson if how big and tough he feels after fielding spunk these last 40+ years. He masterminded himself right into prison, that's how sharp he is. I'm not a Bugliosi fan either, but wow, did he ever do a masterful job of getting that fairy tale motive to stick? He got convictions on all counts against all the defendants and then he also got the death penalty imposed. You have to give him his due, that was incredible. I think if there had been more time to investigate, Bugliosi would have taken an entirely different motive into the courtroom, but he did just fine with the one he had. Cats, as I just mentioned to you on the phone, I don't imagine Dorgan would ever admit to be a Straight Satan. Because that would neatly tie up a lot of loose ends, which could lead to murder charges being filed against him. A lot of players have made it 40+ years in their lives and most of them likely don't want people hunting them down and asking what could be some very sensitive questions. No surprises there. Everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet. Well, at the least the rest of you do. I'm pure as the driven snow.
That round about drive after Waverly doesn't add up to me either. Especially the odd target in Venice where they all get out for a stroll on the beach. The hour was pretty late by then and Linda had already been nodding out at the wheel in Pasadena prior to LaBianca's. Then Charlie just leaves them behind to snuff out Nader? No change of clothes for the killers and expects them to hitchhike back to the ranch? Something isn't right. What was with that long list of celebrities that Susan said the family had planned to kill? Why didn't they stop at one of those stars houses then and make HUGE headlines? Why Nader, it just seems small time and stupid. It was also in an apartment building for crying out loud. You think no one would have called the police had the guy stating screaming for his life? If the Helter Skelter plan was reality for Charlie I think the killings wouldn't have been kept such a secret from others in the family. I feel Charlie would have been more like David Koresh or Jim Jones basking in what they were doing for the greater good or have everyone drink the Kool-Aide rather than instead of hiding like snakes in Death Valley.
Not having a change of clothes was no challenge, since Manson left Yana the witch in charge. :winkn: But that is yet another interesting point. Possibly, but remember, we're talking about a con who had a lot of years in a cell. I think Manson had enough sense to maintain a level of "need to know" with everyone. Which actually raises another question. Or two. Atkins had been with Manson for approximately 2 years by this point. If he had only a tenth of the ability to judge the character of others people have ascribed to him, he would have known Atkins was a glory-seeker who had problems keeping her mouth shut. If you knew that about Atkins, would you select her to take part in not one, not two, but three episodes of murder? It was a lock she would end up banging her gums to someone about the murders. Yet we're expected to believe this "mastermind" selected her? Aye. Right. On the other hand, we have Kasabian called out on both Tate and LaBianca (and allegedly on Nader). Kasabian had shown up on 4 July, barely a month earlier, yet she was trusted enough to be part of the hit squad? Sorry, the excuse she was the only one available with a diver's license is pretty lame. Manson had a license issued to him on 21 July 1967, which was not due to expire until 12 November 1969. If Watson didn't have a license, why was he driving Beausoleil's Power Wagon, on his way back to Texas? The valid driver's license story is phony as a $3 bill. Kasabian admits she only had minimal interaction with Manson. Manson admits he had been introduced to her, but barely knew her. Not only is she selected for murder duty, Manson leaves her responsible for seeing Nader murdered? Of course, this all assumes Manson was ordering anyone to murder anyone else. The only testimony we have on that matter came from thieves, murderers and liars, who were all looking for a pass. You know Bugliosi had to have a program, to keep track of which people he was cutting deals and which people he was prosecuting.
I think the prosecution recieved calls from Sacramento telling them that this case was a perfect way to smash any acceptance of the hippie hords that had flocked to the state. All Bugs had to do was paint the Manson Family as a run of the mill hippie commune. Then he set about convincing the jury that any such commune was capable of changing anyone's disillusioned teenagers into a killer zombies w/ enough drugs, depraved sex and "brain washing". The implications of this case ranged far and wide. "Lets paint these hippies as dangerous and the rest of CA and the country 97%(?) will reject them along w/ anything they say or do. Charlie was so fucking stupid. All he had to do was sit there and look dumb(not too hard for him). AND let his lawyers do their job. Screw the umbrella defense and just disassociate himself from his "Family". 90% chance he walks. Everyone points to the fact that the defense never put up a defense. The prosecution must prove its case, Kanarek, rightfully so, didnt think Bugs proved anything other than that Manson was a frustrated singer-songwriter and a pedophile that liked young pussy and an occasional peter. You are right Mike, Manson couldn't have helped him anymore than he did. He PROVED the brainwashing theory as the girls mimicked every thing he did from shaving his head to the forehead artwork. What impressed me the most was that Bugs convinced a jury that Manson brainwashed the killers BUT yet they still could be responsible for their actions. I dont get how it could be both ways. They were either brainwashed or they chose to kill the victims on their own. There was no attempt at killing a Nader. Pigs dont live in apartment buildings. Pigs as they were described by both the Family and the prosecution lived in nice houses like the Polanskis and LaBiancas. This escapade does not fit in with anything else this cast of characters did. Just more mumbo jumbo.
Hey, On another note, I was wondering whether anyone had found out who gave the killers that ride back to Spahn after the LaBianca murders? If they did actually hitchhike back as Manson had instructed then someone out there came pretty close to being another victim surely? Anyone know anything about that?
I just had a weird thought when reading Mr. Mike's first comment..What if we are looking at this ALL the wrong way? What if the La Biancas were the real intended victims, and since Manson/Watson knew the layout of the Cielo house, decided to kill everyone in that house first to throw off the police? Manson used all that driving around as a ruse, since he SAID he wanted to kill someone else that night, but really didn't seem all that interested in it when it really came down to it? Just a thought that came to me and it seemed plausible, at least right at this minute it did. Maybe not so much later on.
It strikes me as funny considering that we know the house where the killers hosed off after Cielo, and even have an exchange between them and the home-owner, but no mention at all of anyone driving the Labianca killers home despite the fact that they must have been the most suspicious bunch of hitchhikers ever, if only for the the fact that they lived on (and presumably were dropped off) at a movie ranch.
Maybe the driver was under the influence of something or another and has no recollection of giving them the ride? Maybe the driver had some legal issues of his/her own and couldn't see any need to be associated with the killers, even in so loose a manner? That kind of admission could bring someone a lot of unwanted attention, aye? Maybe the driver was due to ship off to Southeast Asia and was one of those who didn't come home? I think there are plausible reasons why the driver (or drivers) never turned up. I can't remember any of the drivers that ever picked me up, nor any of the hitchhikers I picked up.
Wasn't it said that the driver had a thing for Leslie and she did something with him at the ranch? I thought I read that somewhere or was that a different time/scenario?
I thought that they got dropped off a little bit from the Ranch. There is an article about that somewhere on here..lol And that they came to the Ranch looking for Leslie-and she hid.
I thought I read that the Killers of the Labiancas had hitched a ride and went to a crash pad to partied for a while before going back to the Movie Ranch. Didn't Stephanie Scram say something about a guy coming to the ranch looking for Leslie and Leslie hid under the cover, and then later they counted some coins and burned a purse and some lady's clothing. Vince
The La Biancas lived in a very nice area-Los Feliz, which in 1969 was a upper class to affluent neighborhood, hippies hitching through that area, no matter how late in the evening would have been noticed. Doctors, and movie people lived in that neighborhood, people were up at all hours in that neighborhood. I cannot see how The Family was not seen or reported in that neighborhood or on the freeway. In 1969, law enforcement would stop hippies, question them even if they were passengers in a car, and see if they had any reefer on them, because that was a collar for the officer who made the stop, and the sentencing for the offender was prison time. There are a lot of things wrong with the scenario that V. Bugs puts forth concerning the La Bianca murders. I always found it odd in how the group got out of Los Feliz and got a ride to the ranch, I have never found any info on it. Has anything ever come out recently that states who gave the Manson hit squad a ride to the ranch or what kind of vehicle it was? Or is there any info on what roads they took out of Los Feliz or what streets they were on outside of Los Feliz? ------Los Feliz was confusing at night back in 1969 with the winding roads, hills, to people who had been there even a few times, and that group just hitched out of there and was never lost and not seen? Hmmm?
Maybe they didn't go back there for Nader but rather to the Satan's pad for some criminal man-talk after which the girls left behind screwed their respective bikie loverboys, who then dropped them back at the ranch.
Los Feliz is still confusing, even in daylight. But there are several major thoroughfares in the area, as well. And people walking are not restrained to using streets to get from here to there. Hearing traffic on the 5, they could have been there by jumping a couple of fences and cutting through very few lawns. The 134 is not much further away, nor are the 101 or the 110. Whilst driving through that neighborhood is a confusing son-of-a-gun, the area has a lot of freeways that were all nearby and easily accessible. We talked about people who had given Manson hitchikers rides and I am of the opinion it's not hard to believe no one ever came forward. I don't know about you, but my thumb used to provide me with a lot of rides. And I cannot recall a single detail about any of those drivers who were good enough to give me a lift. Which means they likely remember the same about me. And you know, if I had suddenly seen a remembered face or faces on the front page of the news, I'm not so sure I would have wanted to wade into the mess by admitting I had given them a ride. A fish will never get in trouble, so long as he remembers to keep his mouth shut, aye?
