I found this in my search today. It was posted by a guy named David O., on the Remebering Voyteck Frykowski tribute page. if it's already posted, please accuse me. Tammie
This is how all cemeteries look like in Poland. This is his family's tombstone, his ashes are there with remains of his deceased relatives. Usually, there is one, large family tombstone, usually large enough that it is raised above the ground roomy enough for 10-15 people, and all the names of people who are lying together in that grave are engraved on a panel on top. I agree that it may look cluttered compared to North American cemeteries, but just imagine how lovely it is when it is full of people on All Souls day visiting their dear departed, and tombstones are sparkly shine from fresh cleaning, heavy with flowers and candles and letters It's really quite beautiful, and I just like the thought that after I die I will be laying next to all my loved ones, grandparents and aunts and uncles, it's just a very comforting thought. Cluttered as it may be Wojtek's ashes are right there, next to his son, next to his parents, next to people he loves. I believe his soul is with them as well, and in peace...
That was very educational, Kasia. It was great to hear an explanation of how things are done in Poland. I learned something new. Thanks. Thanks for posting the pic, Tammie. I'd never seen it before.
Yes, it's Katarzyna, but I just go by Kasia I am very happy I found this forum, it is amazing how many stuff is out there today. When the killing happened Agnieszka's parents (Agnieszka is Wojtek's granddaughter) received a telegram from the states that Wojtek is dead, then had to wait two days for clearance from the government to make a phone call to California... It was impossible to go there (communist Poland, government didn't let us out back then) it was impossible to contact anyone, get much information, hear about the trial. Not until over twenty years later it was possible to really dig up stuff and be in touch with someone from the States. Can you imagine, in the dark twenty years after Wojtek died? And then the internet came... I don't know what what worse for his family, not knowing anything or knowing way to much. I remember when Agnieszka first came across Wojtek's morgue photos... She knew they existed for some time, but she knew to look at them is the last thing she should do.. And then some "nice person" kindly printed out the most gruesome, graphic photos, and mailed them to her.. It was devastating.. Especially that not so long after that her father (Wojtek's son) was stabbed to death in another polish director's villa. It was in Poland this time, but she just kept looking back at those pictures of Wojtek asking if her father suffered like this.. Horrible, horrible story, It makes my stomach turn every time any of the killers wants to get paroled I keep thinking about Agnieszka and all those families whose lives have been broken, will they ever get paroled from their nightmares? many people, so many lives crippled by this nightmare even almost half a century later. And those maggots want to ever get paroled???
Bartek at least deserved it. He was robbed of a father but I can't say Voy's granddaughter who had sex in the Big Brother house, does full frontal nudity shots, deserves anything from a man she never knew. I'd hate to think she uses her grandfather to further her own career as a Polish Kim Kardashian.
The law suit is not carried on to her and she has no interest in that money. I don't know why you are saying that she uses he grandfather to further her career, she had never made any public statements or comments regarding her grandfather, Polanski, the murders or Manson. She is who she is and chooses to do stuff that many of us wouldn't do, but it's up to her what she does with her body, she is certainly not harming anyone, and never made any attempt to use her family history publicly. As for Wojtek being a "man she never knew", just because he was killed before he was born doesn't mean she wasn't present in her family in pictures, conversations and emotions. The impact of his death did enough damage in her life and in those close to her, it's not fair to say that Wojtek is just some stranger to her.
I'm pleased she doesn't use her family's history to keep her name in the papers, but in my opinion, a woman having sex on a reality show and doing full frontal pictures for magazines is not the type of woman I'd champion or even respect. That's only my opinion.
I'm just saying, I do not champion what she does with her body either, but is she not worthy of compassion if she made some bad personal choices? Apart from the big brother craziness she was a part of seven years ago, Agnieszka cut herself out from that crowd, got a bachelor and masters degree and today is a stage actress working in more then one theatres, with drama as well as comedy repertoire. She is not a wealthy starlet, living off a reality show. We all make mistakes in early twenties, be it drugs, alcohol, sex life, that we abandon as we grow as a person. Does the mistakes she made mean she is to be shunned even in a conversation that does not concern her personal life, but the death of her grandfather? She is Wojtek's granddaughter and his murder had impact on her, I just mentioned her name because from knowing her back in school that is how I became interested in finding out more about the murders, and some of the things that she said (at school, to her friends, before she ever went on big brother) made me wonder about the impact that people can have on other peoples' lives even decades and oceans away. And no matter what happened after, she was very nice and very kind girl back at school, who experience a lot of sadness in her life. Maybe it was a way for her to "act out" her hurt. She was always very helping, tutored for free and often shared her money with friends who had a bit less. I lost touch with her after school, but I am feeling sad for her, regardless of some stupid mistakes she made when she grew up. I do not wish to argue with you Moonglow, you certainly have a point about women trying to gain publicity through nudity But there are always two sides to a coin.
[quote author=kasia link=topic=4660.msg42922#msg42922 date=1259682245] I'm just saying, I do not champion what she does with her body either, but is she not worthy of compassion if she made some bad personal choices? [/quote] Sadly, Kasia, compassion is not understood by all the people who post here. And to some people bad personal choices seem to be something a person can never escape. For what it's worth I share your feelings - I find it hard that decisions taken rashly in the muddled madness of youth should haunt people for the rest of their days. I believe in forgiving and then forgetting (if possible). But I feel I am in a minority here. I sometimes wonder (no disrespect to anyone) if that is because I grew up in Argentina and England - and if I would think differently had I been brought up in the US. But who knows? Jem
[quote author=jempud link=topic=4660.msg42925#msg42925 date=1259686650] Sadly, Kasia, compassion is not understood by all the people who post here.[/quote] What a ridiculous thing to say. I think members here, including myself, have shown enormous compassion towards the victims. And in regard to you saying you feel different or you feel in a minority because you were brought up in England. Snap. I too have been raised in England and it certainly doesn't set me apart from my American friends here. We're all members of this forum for the same reasons.
My dear Duck, I always enjoy your thoughts. I agree that compassion is oft given to the victims, but many times is lacking in other areas. It is no secret that I am pretty rigid in many of my beliefs in regards to personal responsibility for one's actions, but many people have become entangled in this 40 year old madness not of their own doing, but become victims of collateral damage none the less. In this case, Voy's granddaughter has suffered (in my opinion) tremendous psychological trauma for most of her developing life, which manifested itself in some of her early adult decisions in life. To judge others completely on moral issues, as opposed to legal or criminal issues, only hurts us all as a society. Wow, did I really just say that? Excuse while I go raise my flag, and hold one of my guns until I settle down. Kasia, welcome to our loving yet often disfunctional family. I look forward to your input, especially with your understanding and knowledge from a Polish perspective. It is interesting how this topic transcends so many international borders.
That's I completely respect where you are coming from, but my point of view, I don't believe the granddaughter suffered any mental or emotional damage. I can sympathise with her father. He was 10 years old when this happened, totally aware of what happened too considering he was at the trial with his grandmother/uncle, but my compassion for the victims and to certain members of their families (Doris Tate, Ines Folger, Patti/Debbie etc) doesn't extend to the next generation. I'm of the opinion that to suffer something, you had to have had a taste of it. Peace x
Moonglow, with the greatest of respect I must ask you to accept that you are a newcomer here. I believe you started posting a fortnight ago. Perhaps compassion has in general been shown to the victims - but I was thinking as much of some of the perpetrators. I don't think you'll find much compassion towards, let's say, Leslie Van Houten who has suffered her entire adult life because of rash decisions she took when she was nineteen. I don't think you'll find many people here who consider Leslie a victim too, but that would be the kind of compassion I refer to. Believe me - or go look - there are indeed people who post - and have posted (some are not currently around) - strong messages with themes of 'did the crime now do the time', 'may they rot in hell', etc. I don't want to open up this argument again, but you will find it in the backlog. With regard to feeling the way you do because of where you are brought up, I ask you to consider that this concept has validity. Few Brits (I am not one, by the way, although I speak English) are in favour of capital punishment whereas many North Americans are. Brits on the whole tend to see imprisonment as an opportunity for rehabilitation - many North Americans see it as a chance for punishment (the old 'may they rot in hell' line). Of course there are exceptions, but we've been over this quite a few times in the last few years. I hope you'll forgive me if this comes across as hectoring - not my intention at all, but I do give thought to what I say and how I say it. Jem
For the love of God almighty, I wish there was an edit feature on here so I could go back and rub out the beginning word (Ignore 'That's)
[quote author=jempud link=topic=4660.msg42933#msg42933 date=1259689663] Moonglow, with the greatest of respect I must ask you to accept that you are a newcomer here. I believe you started posting a fortnight ago.[/quote] With the greatest respect right back to you, I think it's irrelevant to assume it's not ok for newcomers to pull others up on what they see as rudeness. I felt quite offended when you said: I've not been a member long, but I've seen nothing but the greatest respect paid to others on here. To the people who deserve it.
