Hello all, First post, so please be gentle! The towel over Jay Sebring's face the morning after. Long speculated to be part of the work of Manson's return visit. However, in Roman Polanski's autobiograpahy, "Polanski", Roman claims that detectives told him that the towel was put over Sebring's face by police, seeing as his facial injuries were so horrendous. It's new to me, and it's the first I've heard of it. Any thoughts here? best Si
Hey Si, From what I have read Susan supposedly wrote PIG on the door with it and then flung it back in the room where it landed on Jay's head. That sounds harsh and I dont mean to be disrespectful to the victims.. And welcome and post away.
[quote author=simonwells61 link=topic=3433.msg28175#msg28175 date=1227220556] Hello all, First post, so please be gentle! The towel over Jay Sebring's face the morning after. Long speculated to be part of the work of Manson's return visit. However, in Roman Polanski's autobiograpahy, "Polanski", Roman claims that detectives told him that the towel was put over Sebring's face by police, seeing as his facial injuries were so horrendous. It's new to me, and it's the first I've heard of it. Any thoughts here? best Si [/quote] Welcome Si Hope U have FUN! I personally don't believe that a policeman would have done that. They know, even the LAPD of those days, that evidence can be transferred and contaminated. Also if U look at the pics, the cloth isn't just laid over his head but slightly tucked around his head.
I was understood that Sadie used the towel to write the word PIG and then threw it over Jay's head, but i the crime scene pics you can clearly see the towel is tucked under the rope, this along with the pool of blood at the door is highly suggestive that Manson and possibily others returned to the crime scene and re-arranged it.
Yes, I have always believed that Manson and whoever* went back and did that. However as Roman says in the book... "Sebring had been fully clothed when he died. He had not been sexually mutilated, nor was there any hood over his head, just a cloth one of the policemen had used to cover his face because his wounds were so appalling."
Lots of speculation as to the 'whoever', but by all accounts someone (female) with very small feet on account of footprints left behind. Also, if the bodies were moved to the porch , someone strong enough to do that as Manson was himself slight in build and a small footed woman is unlikely to be especially strong. A dead body is dead weight. Lots of names put forward but I doubt we'll ever know the truth on this.
No, we are never going to know the truth about this. Because a few of the interested parties could be charged with further crimes, no limits on culpability on murder in Calif. And we all know Charlie likes his little jokes/secrets : If you want my opinion, Charlie, Bruce and Nancy went to the Cielo Dr. house, tried to hang Sharon and Jay from the rafters outside the front door(as per Helter Skelter), failed, put them back in the house and split.
[quote author=jempud link=topic=3433.msg28193#msg28193 date=1227283642] Lots of speculation as to the 'whoever', but by all accounts someone (female) with very small feet on account of footprints left behind. Also, if the bodies were moved to the porch , someone strong enough to do that as Manson was himself slight in build and a small footed woman is unlikely to be especially strong. A dead body is dead weight. Lots of names put forward but I doubt we'll ever know the truth on this. [/quote] The foot print most probably was Sadie's, the shoe prints weren't ID'd.
There is a report, unconfirmed, that the Sharon was actually hung inside Cielo Drive's lounge. On first witnessing this, Police brought her body down to the floor. I seem to recall Tex Watson being asked by Steve Kay about Sharon being "hung". I sort have difficulty with this because however horrendous the killing was, having a rope around your neck and being hung, are two different things. The death photo shows no rope being taught. Does someone know something that we don't? Si x
[quote author=simonwells61 link=topic=3433.msg28197#msg28197 date=1227289860] There is a report, unconfirmed, that the Sharon was actually hung inside Cielo Drive's lounge. On first witnessing this, Police brought her body down to the floor. I seem to recall Tex Watson being asked by Steve Kay about Sharon being "hung". I sort have difficulty with this because however horrendous the killing was, having a rope around your neck and being hung, are two different things. The death photo shows no rope being taught. Does someone know something that we don't? Si x [/quote] Si there were conflicting statements by the murderers about what happened in the main room, some saying Sharon and Jay and even maybe Folger had the rope around their necks. There were burn abrasions on Sharon's neck. But again my opinion is that the bodies were moved. I think if the blood evidence was more carefully collected, it would show that.
The abrasions I think were explained by the fact of standing and pulling not so much as being hung..if there was a hanging, then there would be more of a distinct marking, and perhaps damage to the throat etc... that wasnt shown in the autopsy
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=3433.msg28203#msg28203 date=1227307091] The abrasions I think were explained by the fact of standing and pulling not so much as being hung..if there was a hanging, then there would be more of a distinct marking, and perhaps damage to the throat etc... that wasnt shown in the autopsy [/quote] Absolutely!! ;D
I believe too that the bodies were moved. The pooling of blood around Sharon shows this to me more than anything. But the question to me is whether or not they were moving, moved etc while the killers were in the house. How long does it take for blood to stop flowing once the heart stops?
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=3433.msg28205#msg28205 date=1227309390] I believe too that the bodies were moved. The pooling of blood around Sharon shows this to me more than anything. But the question to me is whether or not they were moving, moved etc while the killers were in the house. How long does it take for blood to stop flowing once the heart stops? [/quote] It depends on the manner of death usually seconds though. Heart stops, thats it, the pump pressure is gone. You can still bleed a great deal from large open wounds according to position and if the body is moved the remaining blood can shift locations a lot if there was internal bleeding, esp. from stab wounds. That's why Granado's failure to do a complete blood workup at Cielo has caused much questioning over the years. All the blood at the front door was not properly recorded, he just took some "samples." :
I think part of the hanging story also comes from the reference to the one tarot card, the hanged man or something, and the story that the killers were trying to replicate something. Eerily similiar to the note left by Frazier at the Ohta scene..and he and the Mansonites were both screaming about the environment.. But I dont remember when the Mansonites took that cause up.
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=3433.msg28225#msg28225 date=1227454987] I think part of the hanging story also comes from the reference to the one tarot card, the hanged man or something, and the story that the killers were trying to replicate something. Eerily similiar to the note left by Frazier at the Ohta scene..and he and the Mansonites were both screaming about the environment.. But I dont remember when the Mansonites took that cause up. [/quote] After they had been caught murdering, dumping unwanted auto parts and fluids, destroying vegetation w/ their dune buggies, polluting the air by burning govt. equipment, etc...
And the funny thing about Frazier was he was all mad about what wood the Ohta's used to built their house, but yet he polluted by starting it on fire... I guess there is some rationale in there... Does anyone have a picture of the hanging man tarot?
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=3433.msg28232#msg28232 date=1227461901] And the funny thing about Frazier was he was all mad about what wood the Ohta's used to built their house, but yet he polluted by starting it on fire... I guess there is some rationale in there... Does anyone have a picture of the hanging man tarot? [/quote]
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=3433.msg28235#msg28235 date=1227465322] Okay were there any abrasions on the ankles? [/quote] anything in the autopsy?
