Susan Atkin's child

Discussion in 'Susan Atkins' started by joe25, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. joe25 Donating Members

    One minor issue I thought could be easily clarified was the name given to Susan Atkin's child, born 10-7-68. Here is what I have found and any input from members is appreciated.

    Grand Jury Testimony: Dec. 5, 1969, Pg. 30 -- Zo Ze Ze Se Zadfrack

    Child of Satan, Child of God (soft, pg. 102) -- Ze Zo Ze Cee Zadfrack

    The Family, Ed Sanders (soft, pg. 111, 1972) -- Zezo Ze-ce Zadfrack, aka Zezo

    Charles Manson, Coming Down Fast, Simon Wells (soft, white cover, 2010, pg. 138) -- Zezozose Zadfrack Glutz.

    Some of you have been adept at finding birth certificates, etc. and I would suppose the little guy had one, even though he was born at Spahn Ranch. I think a medical doctor checked him soon after he was born if I'm not mistaken.

    Thank you for consideration of my question. Inquiring minds want to know!

    Joe
  2. TooLate Active Member

    :eek:hthedrama:
    The mother probably had the inside track (child of god...) but the best living source - CM?
  3. TooLate Active Member

    Susan and her attorney Caballeri offer another rendering here; http://truthontatelabianca.com/topic/4267-charles-mansons-pre-trial-motions-and-infinite-soul-inc-members-named/page__pid__51509#entry51509
  4. Jean Harlow Special Friends

    There shouldn't be a birth certificate available of the baby under his original name because when he was adopted they would have expunged his original record. The Court would have ordered that. Otherwise, adoptees could look up their birth parents and show up on their doorsteps unannounced or other people could look up the same information with no privacy at all.
    coonhound likes this.
  5. joe25 Donating Members


    No doubt about the adoption, name change, privacy, and sealed records, etc. However, if the child was in foster care, I would assume the foster parents knew the name, a caseworker from child welfare, possible siblings of the foster parents, other Family members, an application to welfare, what used to be called Aid to Dependent Children, etc. would have had an 'official' spelling.

    Apparently not........... I feel badly for what happened to the little guy.......he was named but noone, including his own mother knew the name or how to spell it.....

    Now we have one more spelling......... Ze Zo Ze Se C Zadfrack....
  6. Jean Harlow Special Friends

    Susan said later that she heard his name was changed to Paul. Definitely easier spelling. All of those records would be sealed at the time of the adoption.
  7. joe25 Donating Members


    To clarify matters, I just stumbled upon this.

    Susan Atkins Parole Hearing Transcript, 12-31-85 pgs. 63 & 64....

    "Defendant (Atkins) had never been married but she had one child, Cezo -- C-e-z-o-z-z-z-e-z-e -- [sic]. Zadfract -- [PHONETIC] -- is the last name.

    pg. 64 -- C-a-d-f-r-a-c-k -- Gultz -- G-u-l-t-z -- . Born, October 7, '68."

    "Miss Atkins, can you -- you tell us if that's accurate statement there? The name and --? Birth date?"

    INMATE ATKINS: Yes Sir.

    PRESIDING MEMBER ACETO: What does the name mean, do you know?

    INMATE ATKINS: No sir, I don't. Mr. Manson named my son. I didn't.

    later Atkins referred to Bruce White, the man she claimed was the father of the 'little guy', "He was a college student from the University of New Mexico, and he was studying physiology" (perhaps physiology studies went to far & led him to be Zezo's of Zoze's dad).

    I can't discern when the name was changed to 'Paul'......Atkins states that she believed he was between 4 and 5 years old when he was adopted.
  8. joe25 Donating Members

    A few other questions came to mind about Atkins' child and relationship with the child after his mother's incarceration:

    What were CA prison policies about visitation with children?

    Did Atkins have visitation with her son while incarcerated?

    Did any of her family request guardianship or temporary custody of Zezo during Atkins' incarceration?

    Did any of the 'Family' request custody and/or did any of the males claim paternity to obtain custody of Zezo?

    Were foster parents in CA allowed to and/or did they change the names of babies that were placed without court proceedings?

    Did Atkins have any legal recourse in the 1970's to fight child welfare, permanent custody proceedings (that would free the infant up for adoption)?

    Was it verified that Aktkins actually gave birth to a child?

    If Atkins gave birth to a child, did the infant survive long enough to even be removed from his mother's care and placed in foster care?

    Were there any letters sent by Atkins to Ronnie Howard or Virginia Graham or others that reflected a grieving mother who was separated from their child?
  9. catscradle77 Administrator

    Atkins claimed that the father was a Lonnie White or something that she had relations with in NM or something-maybe you can find the info, for that is from my memory.

    I dont think any of her family had anything to do with her during the trials and would venture to guess that no one stepped up to claim the baby.

    Any idea how he ended up in foster care?
  10. joe25 Donating Members

    I'm not sure about the reasons for foster care. Some of Atkins' stories leave much to be desired.

    Was there really a Zezo who was born on 10-7-68?

    Was Zezo's mother really Susan Atkins or was he the son of another Family member?

    Was Zezo another Susan Atkins lie? Is Zezo an imaginary product of a delusional, drug addled mind? Did this baby only weigh two pounds at birth, born premature without any medical conditions or problems?

    Did she really go to a "retreat house called the Fountain" (Child of Satan, Child of God) for care of herself and baby?

    Very little was said about Zezo or Zo Ze in Atkins writings? Her parole hearing transcripts reflect very little of her relationship with her infant son. Sadly, one can find more about the men she was involved with during her incarceration then heart break over the loss of her son.

    Where are the Spahn Ranch pictures of Susan and Zezo? Where was the bereavement when she was separated from him when she was arreseted?
  11. catscradle77 Administrator

    If the Fountain is the Fountain of the World, I will defer the question to the expert on the Fountain Shawn Sutherland. Do you have the pages or the quote on that?

    Good questions-we see Ivan all the time. The Rice kids and little baby Sipe are seen. Do we ever see Pooh Bear in photos as a baby?
  12. joe25 Donating Members

    OK, it's on page 102, Child of Satan, etc. (soft, 1978)

    "Five days later, (either after the birth of Zezo or Dr. X checking on Zezo) the women arranged for me to move with the baby to a nearby religious mission and retreat house called the Fountain, where some of the girls had stayed occasionally, hoping to obtain it someday for the use of the people at Spahn's."

    Thank you very much. It would great if some surviving members documented, photographed their stay there.

    Cats, something doesn't make sense with Atkins stories about Zezo. Maybe it's me....

    Atkins, in her 1979 Parole Hearing transcript talks on for several pages about her relationship with Michael Holbrook, a guy she wanted to marry. Very little on Zezo or emotional pain at losing custody, and her family or the Family not fighting for custody.

    Atkins also talked of her relationship with Rory White (I don't know if this Lonnie or Lorrie White or not) who like Zezo went to Hawaii.

    I stand corrected if Zezo wasn't Atkins or real. Right now for me the 'little guy' is like UFOs and Sasquatch, many sightings but little in terms of tangible evidence.

    BTW, my motives in exploring Atkins relationship with her son-- I would think this would be area of truth without fabrication. Maybe I'm wrong. For crying out loud, even O.J.'s mother could spell his name!
  13. Jean Harlow Special Friends

    I am assuming that she lost custody of Zeezo when she was arrested in the October raid in Death Valley. He would have only been about one years old.

    Susan gave an interview with Diane Sawyer after the one the Leslie and Patricia gave and she said she never saw the baby again and that's where I heard that he had the name Paul. As for her family taking custody of her baby when she was arrested, her father was an alcoholic and she didn't see him from I think when she was 17 or so but that would be in her book. He did give interviews about Susan but I don't think she had anything to do with him. Her older brother molested her when she was a child/teenager so she never had anything to do with him after she left home. Her younger brother was too young to have taken custody of the baby and I would think her grandmother was too old. She did resume her relationship with her younger brother after she was in jail and it's his daughters that are interviewed at her hearings I think (maybe they are Whitehouse's nieces) but she did have a relationship with her younger brother.

    Manson's whole thing about children was to have them raised separately from their mothers so their mothers couldn't fill their minds with the usual crap that Manson said all parents did to their children. I imagine that destroyed the usual mother-son bonding that Susan should have had with her son. It's pretty ironic that Manson would think that because his relationship with his own mother was so non-existent.

    Susan did have Zeezo because he is mentioned in Helter Skelter so I think we can trust Bugliosi on this. I think the reason we see more pictures of Ivan is because for one thing Sandra was older than Susan. Her birth family relationships were more stable to begin than were Susan's so she probably had a stronger bond with her baby right away. Also Sandra had Ivan in a hospital so she openly defied Manson who wanted all the babies to be born at home. Mary also had a relationship with her parents in Wisconsin so that's how they were able to get custody of Pooh Bear when the time came.
  14. joe25 Donating Members

    Jean

    The more I read and study Atkins and her testimonies, the more I want verification. If her mother and father were truly alcoholics and then the mother dies, with a 14 or 15 year old adolescent female in the home....I wouldn't be surprised that some type of abuse occurred. It's a big if. Is it a fact that her parents were alcoholics? Did her older brother's friends and family sexually abuse her? Part of the reason I ask these questions is due to the fact that some of Atkins stories parallel Bruce Davis'. Davis allegedly was molested and had an abusive father. Atkins and Davis were corresponding with each other for awhile. Did Davis (inadvertently perhaps) give Atkins a story line to try to use and gain sympathy?

    Also, in her 1979 Parole hearing she mentioned having two books in her cell, The Bible and Will You Die for Me (Tex Watson).
  15. beauders Active Member

    in the documentary "manson" paul watkins said that atkins was out riding a horse and came into the saloon or whatever they were in and said i am going to have my baby now. he described that manson open her up a little more with a razorblade and the baby was born. i believe little zezo did exist and was taken into custody when barker ranch was raided. the authorities even commented the babies were sunburned. i for one do not question atkins claim that her parents were alcoholics and that she was sexually abused. some older brothers, actually it is somewhat common, do sexually abuse their younger sisters and having an alcoholic parent or parents is very common. besides something messed atkins up and her childhood is the first place to look.
  16. joe25 Donating Members

    My questions are this:

    As a new Family member, did Paul witness this event directly and/or did he witness, help out, or observe the birth of Zezo? I remember reading about the sunburned and malnourished infants after the Barker raid. Were any of these babies linked conclusively to Atkins?

    NIMH stats tell us high percentages of female children/adolescents (I think it is about 25%) are sexually abused. By gender alone she was statistically at risk (if those est. were the same then as now). Is there any documentation to verify whether Mr. or Mrs. Atkins were alcoholics? For example were the police called out to the home, did either one have DUIs, was child welfare sent to the Atkins home, etc.?

    Did Atkins brother, Michael come clean about his friends, cousins, or himself sexually abusing his sister? Did the younger brother (Steven) know what was going on at the time? Were the sexual abuse allegations made up by Atkins as a manipulative tactic to evoke sympathy? Was the sexual abuse allegations just one more by-product of irrational or delusional thinking? Were the sexual abuse allegations a retaliation for something Michael did or didn't do to support his sister?

    Poly-substance abuse, bipolar disorder, delusional disorder, schizophrenia, narcissistic psychopath, or none of the aforementioned.......IMHO Atkins shows narcissistic, manipulative, thrill seeking traits associated with psychopaths. I'm less sympathetic and more skeptical about what she has said than in the past.
  17. joe25 Donating Members

    You're probably right about that. I found this in HS, pg. 140, "(All you have to do is act normal, Ronnie advised her); children (Charlie helped deliver her baby, whom she named Zezozose Zadfrack Glutz; within a couple of months after his birth she had begun fellating him):"

    Did Atkins fess up to incest, performing oral sex on her son at some point in her life? Do you know who revealed this to Bugliosi? Was is Paul Watkins? I haven't seen anything anywhere where Atkins addressed the sexual abuse of her son. Have you or anyone else?
  18. ShawnSutherland1964 New Member

    Since Cats asked...

    Regarding the above exchange, since I have no knowledge regarding what became of the child in question, I can only address whether or not Susan Atkins stayed at the WKFL Fountain of the World following the birth of her son. And the answer is yes, she did.

    In her book Child of Satan, Child of God, Susan Atkins offers that her son was given the name "Ze Zo Ze Cee Zadrack for no other reason than that at the torn and twisted time it seemed like a good name. His name later became Paul." (p. 102) Atkins also says, "Five days later, the women [of the "Manson Family"] arranged for me to move with the baby to a nearby religious mission and retreat house called the Fountain, where some of the [Manson Family] girls had stayed occasionally, hoping to obtain it someday for the use of people at Spahn's. I was granted permission to stay there as long as I would help with the work." (Id.)

    I have interviewed numerous members of the Fountain over the past few years and - in the course of working on the chapter of my book devoted to the Fountain members' encounters with the Manson Family - verified all but one aspect of the latter quotation.

    Specifically, Atkins’ sentence about being "granted permission to stay there [at the Fountain] as long as I would help with the work" is at minimum a self-serving statement (Some insist that this is true of Atkins’ entire book.) First of all, although some assert that they occasionally helped out in the kitchen, former Fountain members overall recall the Manson girls as a disrespectful and lazy group. Assisting with daily chores, I'm told, was just not on their list of priorites. Moreover, the Fountain’s slogan was "Dedicated to peace through love and service," and requiring a woman who had just delivered a baby to "pay" for room and board via manual labor was inconsistent with that philosophy.

    Hope this helps.
  19. Jean Harlow Special Friends

    I thought Susan told Bugliosi herself that she was fellating her son. I would have to look for the quote though.
  20. Jean Harlow Special Friends

    I thought Susan told Bugliosi herself that she was fellating her son. I would have to look for the quote though.

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