Susan Atkins asks Linda Kasabian "Why Don't you tell your Part?

Oh well peoplle can take offense if they want - its a free world.

My view of the guts of the conversation is it went like this.

Others - most people or people like me couldn't do Manson type killings
Me - many more than you think could do those types of killings can eg soldiers
Others - don't call soldiers sociopaths
Me - I didn't
Others - some soldiers are sociopaths

Perhaps Americans are just a tad sensitive to perceived criticism of the military in this day and age? I need to remember this forum is full of 'em! Guarantee you this sort of conversation could occur in my country with noone upset by it.

To reply to Dilligaff I've counseled only a few soldiers usually due to their suicidality from ww2 and vietnam, but too many murderers to recall. I'd rather not get into discussing any differences by war at length. The content and nature of their psychic trauma (and many of the murderers too) was more or less equivalent.

Its pretty trite to say it but the Vietnam guys felt less appreciated (ww2s were given houses / warm welcomes), and Vietnams still struggle here today for compo, for the fact many of their children had major birth defects and are highly care dependent.

My grand father was not ashamed of his service, just thought any pride at participation in such an ugly affair as war is a bit misplaced. It had to be done but take no joy in it was more the jist. I mean isn't the whole point of war ironically meant to be to create safety and peace. If you're someone who believes that you are going to go through some serious cogniitive dissonance when called upon to kill. Like it or not it will cause pain to many that you kill. It is not sterile or surgical or humane on the battlefield.

Bottled brunettes post tells it like it is. Just sad.

Too Late,
Well said and I feel it is a great time to introduce this:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bald_eagle_tired_of_everyone_just
Enjoy,
FL

FL,

I support the position of the Eagle.  Them's good eatin', just like Spotted Owls!  >

[quote author=Dilligaf link=topic=4931.msg45388#msg45388 date=1265324336]
FL,

I support the position of the Eagle.  Them's good eatin', just like Spotted Owls!  >
[/quote]
Oh, Dill,

FL,

The Onion is in a league of it's own.

Without a doubt TL, there is a certain sensitivity on these boards with regard to criticism of the military as an institution. As you pointed out, there are a lot of vets around here. Its very difficult for us not to get upset when people like James Cameron, who don't know what they are talking about, make a bazillion dollars portraying the people who make up the ranks as psychos and losers. Ultimately on this board, we're all talking 1960's, and it was maybe the underlying divisive issue of the times. Pat Krenwinkle, as I have occasionally mentioned, saw her activities as being on par with those of a soldier who kills under military orders. She justified the killing of Leno Labianca not by referring to his gambling debts, but by saying "there's one man who wont be sending his son off to war".

Which is a ridiculous thing to say because young men send themselves off to war by complying with the draft or volunteering. Their fathers may feel pride or sorrow but their feelings have little to do with it.

Manson of course has spoken of his obsession with military things, his respect for the veterans of his youth, and so on. He commanded his own little army, had them building bunkers, caching supplies, setting up communication systems, working on vehicles. He sent them off to war, and they followed orders and inflicted casualties on the enemy. He is a classic example of a psychopath who had the interest, intelligence and leadership skills to pursue a military career but would not have been able to survive in the real military. Instead he built his own army, one actually comprised of psychos and losers, and played war.

Attitudes towards the institution of the military are very central to this case and therefore from time to time they will be discussed with a certain level of intensity here.

I, personally, have no problem with an open-minded discussion of the military and its relation to this case.  My problem with this topic, as with many others, is when military people are painted with such a broad brush.  The military, and I do speak from some experience, is a microcosm of society.  If certain ills exist among society then they will be represented to some degree in the military.  There are gang bangers in the military today.  If society has a certain percentage of potential murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. then those tendencies, to a lesser extent due to screening, will exist in the military.  There is no sure fire way to exclude them.  But saying that all military personnel are indoctrinated to kill and to feel a certain way about it is ludicrous.  Over the years I have read countless assessments and evaluations of "military personnel" by armchair theorists and would be "subject matter experts".  What they never seem to get is that American military personnel are Americans.  They come from this society and any propensities found among the population will be represented in this group.  My argument is not that you say some characteristic is present but that it is implied that it is present in all.  Expertise in a subject is best when earned and not self-proclaimed.

Tell it to my university and employers, they seem to think I know my field. I take some of your points, but once again your post reflects that you did not hear what i actually said. For the last time i was talking about mental states - not characterising people as either good or bad. If you will continue to be abusive in tone, using words like weakminded etc then I will not reply again.

i did not say personnel are indoctrinated to kill (that implies to do it indiscriminately) - but they certainly are trained to kill. Nor did I say they are trained to feel a certain way about it, no they are trained to have the capability to fight/kill, which quite clearly involves a certain mental set or state that is useful if not necessary during combat.

Police are trained to be authoritative, you never see them being submissive with criminals and asking with a smile like a social worker what options they'd like to pursue now eg get busted or a cup of tea. Likewise soldiers are trained not to wuss out. Nurses are trained to have caring behaviour, and hopefully the matching inner mindset for that etc etc etc. Numerous papers are written on whether nurses can just act the caring part via warm behaviour etc but not feel it (better to avoid burn out) or whether it is necessary to feel it within to be the best nurse. It is a current debate in academia.

Occupations produce people of use or the trainers fail. Historically where training is involved professions have sought to shape a type.

That's really interesting to see Manson as a self appointed military leader, I never heard that angle but it fits. Especially with the constant talk of constitutions, and his letters to presidents. Seems to feel he is some kind of patriot or American saviour at heart. Must be some thing to do with early influences or his Father being military?

I understand what you are saying, toolate, and hope you don't think I have been angry with you.  I've just been reading this thread with interest, but I just had to say something in defense about the military-I hope you didn't think I was jumping on you.  You have said some things that give me something to think about, whether I agree with all of it or not, its just interesting to read what you say.  Food for thought.

bb

TL, in Post WWII West Virginia, I can imagine that combat veterans of that conflict were a very visible presence. CM, who would have been 11 in 1945, and who lacked a male parental figure in his life, seemed to have been affected by their bearing and attitude and what he may have heard about war directly from men who fought in the biggest armed conflict in history. He himself has spoken of this. I think CM craved respect, he saw the respect that was accorded veterans and that may have intrigued him.

He admired their military efficiency. In particular, he was fascinated by Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox, the most famous (in the US) of the German Army commanders. His attachment to "The Other Side" was probably a facet of his anti-social personality.

How much respect for the fighting ability of the German Army did the Allied leaders have? The British did a secret study in WWII, which Churchill never released. It indicated that it took on average 3 British soldiers to take out 1 regular wehrmacht soldaten. The respect for the German army held by the British was a key factor in the strategy employed by the British during the war, which was very cautious, in particular with regard to a cross channel attack. The Americans wanted to go in guns blazing in 1943. The British managed to delay it until 1944, and even then they were very concerned about the prospects for failure.

[quote author=reality_d link=topic=4931.msg45450#msg45450 date=1265418028]
The Americans wanted to go in guns blazing in 1943. The British managed to delay it until 1944, and even then they were very concerned about the prospects for failure.


[/quote]

Good thing the British did not wait too much longer, or they may have had a decidedly different accent.

Such crap about Chuckie Manson...the only respect he got or shared was from grabbing his ankles in prison.  Keep giving him any credit or respect and I'll leave immediately.  You want to get rid of FL, then just keep propping Chuck!  At best, he was a pimp and a rapist...At best!
FL

FL,

You're not going to go anywhere.  Take a deep breath and realize that most people on this site do not see CM as being worthy of anything.  He is a stain on the underwear of society, nothing more.

Huh? FreeLeslie I don't think anyone here at all is trying to praise Charlie, just to understand how he ticks.

My interest in the whole case is really to try and understand the human interactions in it all, and how they led to disaster with no brakes on. Am sure others have their own reasons for high interest too.

For me learning about background and formative influences therefore is quite interesting.

One thing I've been focussed on lately, as a relative newbie to the subject, is finding out just what about him personally did attract others. Part of this is discovering what they saw in him, how it was he presented himself to be so damn loyalty inducing. The overall impression is that he could just read others well then fill their bill, bit like a hooker.

For a couple of days i've been going through anecdote of those who knew him. Before his notoriety set in. It seems that what they saw was a free spirit unshackled by convention, who was fun, smart, looked after his flock, musically promising, full of insight etc

This extends from record producers to family members to skilled journos eg the rolling stone guy. Non flakes saw him as socially acceptable until such time as his act got a bit too messy and true colours peeked through. Sending bullets to useful famous friends is not a good career move.

Anyway I've turned up little in the way of human decency to commend him, that would impress me. It seems he showed a certain charm to women he was trying to suck in, as a typical pimp would. Seems he had a worse strike rate with conning men, especially older ones.

Took girls on motorbike rides for donuts - made them feel special - targeted obvious down on themselves girls. The only other slight ray of redemption I found was highly suspect. On an atwa related blog I found (through clues here), is a claim he tried to write to all the co-offenders a year or two ago. Asking them if we can't all forgive one another.

As inmates aren't allowed to correspond, the communication apparently went via a supporter, and apparently Atkins husband ripped it up and did not pass to Susan, as she would have got in trouble and as she likely would not want contact regardless. I'm not sure the sentiment originated with Manson either - why after all these years? Maybe he was pushed to try making amends?

Have not been able to check parole hearing records to see if he is claiming any works to help the community from prison as manson family today has disappeared, but I feel quite sure he has made no attempt to balance the scales by real service. Has just continued preaching psychobabble, or rubberstamping others, thru atwa. Shows pretty much no progress or insight into what behaviours got him where he is wouldn't you say? I personally think he should have a condition on his sentence that he can't preach psychobabble. Its like a beacon to attract more muppets. 

CM is one great big sociopath, who I believe cannot be liked by anyone (sensible) who truly gets him. A sociopath too who has basked in it, and done nothing of use for society despite 40 years of lay about opportunity. Seems to me because he fels that just by being Manson he has achieved celebrity, what more is needed.
Anyhow I focus minimal time on him, only whats necessary to understand how others ended up under his sway or dead. Just reading about him is quite unpleasant - he is a dime a dozen sociopath and just annoying to dwell on. Reading about him is like renting him time in your head or home - yuk. A task not a pleasure for me.

[quote author=FreeLeslie link=topic=4931.msg45456#msg45456 date=1265421476]
Such crap about Chuckie Manson...the only respect he got or shared was from grabbing his ankles in prison.  Keep giving him any credit or respect and I'll leave immediately.  You want to get rid of FL, then just keep propping Chuck!
FL
[/quote]

ROFLMAO.........

This is during the sentencing phase of the trial, post-conviction.

The girls put on a "Charlie-wasn't-our-leader-Kasabian-was" charade and tried to blame their accuser of being the real murderous mastermind.

an army mom myself, having to hlep'put my son back together or at least help that process. they dont want to have to come to that. and the grneral public has no idea what so ever what they go thru and how yhey get no medical care whdn ill (i believe as a way to torture THEM by their command) so that they have an angty upset mentality all the time keep em buzzed for when they have to defend. its sick and we should all be extremely grateful to them an all who came and served and suffered before them. so that the majority here r safe and living the lifestyle we r now accustomed to. (and i havent even touched on the parts about how we lost my dad and then my husband and seven yr old son in ah accident two wks later a few yrs ago and howmy son and other kids and myself all suffered through all that) sorry..

Interesting thread, but then again I've found very few on this forum that aren't.

A much smarter person that I can ever hope to be once said that foregiveness isn't about the forgivee, it's about the forgiver. Forgiveness alllows the forgiver to move past the event where they're "stuck" and eliminate the power the situation -- and the person who perpetrated it -- has over their life. It's saying, "This happened, you did it, but you don't have the right to dictate what my life can be, should be, or will be from this point on. I forgive you and choose not to live in the past with this situation and with the hate and the rage you cause me to feel."

That doesn't mean you forget. It means you move on as best you can and seek meaning for your life -- and for the death or injury of yourself or a loved one -- in a more positive space.

I remember reading about a man who lost, I believe, his adult daughter in the Oklahoma City bombing. When Timothy McVeigh was to be executred, those family members and other survivors who could not be accommodated at the actual execution site were given the opportunity to watch it on closed-circuit television somewhere in Oklahoma City. This man had refused to attend, and, when asked why, said, "Timothy McVeigh has already stolen everything of value he can take from me. I choose not to give him another moment of my time." Or equally powerful words to that effect.

That stuck with me. That man will be able to come to terms with the death of his family member and move on. He acknowledges the terrible thing that happened to him but refuses to dwell on it or give the perpetrator his 15 minutes of fame.

That we could all, and would all, be so wonderful in similar situations.