One thing I've always found curious is Sadie's retelling of the physical struggle between her and VF. She complained that he was pulling her hair and that she was "fighting for her life" :. I guess I don't see how a guy as big and strong as Voytek couldn't have gotten the better of her and wrested the knife away from diminutive Sadie. . . I know there's the element of fear and shock, but it still boggles my mind. Wonder if this is just another detail SA has been lying about over the years...
A lot of dope was in his system - probably poly substances - some 'celebrity' (sorry I can't remember which - it is in a bio) stated he saw Frykowski an evening or so earlier and he was so stoned that his eyes were rolling back and he was in 'another world'. He was in day 8 of a 13 day planned dope excursion trying out the new MDMA from his Canadian connection, it is believed. I think that there was something more going on - I think he might have been having some sort of sexual encounter with a 'forward spy' when all this started. There is not way he would have let the Sadmiester tie him up with a towel! A towel? Stoned for 8 days or not - he was a big man - he had already taken a gun from a man before in other 'drug deal' but most of all he was a survivor of some of the pogroms of the Holocaust - and the element of fear that comes with surviving can make one superhuman in strength.
Hi Courtney!! I have missed you! What do you mean by sexual? Was VF having sex with someone, perhaps Linda K, as has been mentioned before? Sorry, I am dense and do not understand?! Jamie
Hey Babe - missed you too - but felt well enough to actually work a bit this week - which is great because I needed the money! Consider this senario - possibly Linda - I hadn't thought of her, I was thinking more Sadie since it is gossiped that she and Gypsy were the ones that were swimming nude in the pool (horribly ugly thought there, huh?) prior to the August killings - It is thought that Frykowski might have been taking movie of them - (but none have ever surfaced) anyway, I have read that in a rape/killing/abuction type of thing that it is easier to get the 'bead' on a man in the throes of raping you - he might feel strong but he is distracted...LOL - that's when you go for his weapon so to speak - She says she stabbed him in the legs - the autospy report confirms this - legs? Hair? It would be a lot easier for a small woman like Sadie to get to his legs and him get to her hair if prehaps she was orally 'servicing him'. Back in that day - we 'good girls' knew nothing about this sort of thing - but Sadie would as would any of the rest of the trio that night. Let's say Voy was on the sofa enjoying the trip out - it was not unusual for people to pop in and out - Sadie popped in and in his half alert state he was enjoying her excursion and Wham - she pullls out her knife and there is Tex with that gun - For the strangest reason Tex says 'Sadie and Katie popped up' - Weird huh? That term...they popped up - supposedly they had just crawled in the window behind him -
Glad you feeling better! Yes, that is the strangest comment~ They just popped up. From where? I had always thought they went thru the window, or Tex did and then let the others in. So, just where were they? Interesting. Jamie
I agree! Very interesting scenario and not at all unlikely given Sadie's proclivities. Gives new meaning to her "popping up".
It' easy to speculate what he could or should have done but he was the one in that situaton, not us. Waking up to see a group of siickies with knives and one with a gun who had just shot your friend. You can bet that the man was freaked to the extreme and the fact that he fought like he did was pretty corageous to me.
I don't think anyone is critcizing what he did or didn't do. I never judge any of them because no one knows what they'd do in that situation. The fact that any of them fought at all is impressive to me.
Interesting book a few years ago on 'fear' and how it works - some people will placate - some will fight immediately, some will hope for the best - However, didn't Voytek take a gun away from someone (Doyle or Dawson) within a few months of this incident? I really think he was hampered by the MDA and the fact he was expecting someone -
[quote author=courtney link=topic=4359.msg38258#msg38258 date=1251769876] Interesting book a few years ago on 'fear' and how it works - some people will placate - some will fight immediately, some will hope for the best - However, didn't Voytek take a gun away from someone (Doyle or Dawson) within a few months of this incident? I really think he was hampered by the MDA and the fact he was expecting someone - [/quote] Hey Court - Your last bit there caused a synapse to fire for me this time. I wonder if there was supposed to be a delivery that night, Tex et al went to grab the stuff before it could be moved on but got there too early. Thus why VF was in his shoes, but allegedly sleeping on the couch, i.e., he's waiting for the delivery. The delivery could either never have been made or someone showed up after the murders, saw what had happened and took off. If that happened and then CM and Co. showed up to mess with the scene, I could easily see why Garretson would stay hidden all night. It would have been like a Grand Central Station of crime at Cielo between midnight and dawn. Just random thoughts.
Commie - want to marry me???? Actually I've always thought that Bill Scanlon-Murphy (hope that's the right name - he was a British session musician for the Beach Boys might be right - he was told by Dennis Wilson that there was supposed to be a 40,000 shipment of drugs to come in that night - http://www.compulsiononline.com/index2.htm Those trunks - it would explain those trunks making them not such a coincidence but a signification - those trunks have always bothered me - perhaps Tex didn't find the stash and Charlie came back for a dual reason - However the down side of Scanlon Murphy's theory is the "Live Freaky, Die Freaky" which puts a lot of the blame on the victims and I'm not sure how I feel about that matter -
[quote author=courtney link=topic=4359.msg38331#msg38331 date=1251842129] Commie - want to marry me???? Actually I've always thought that Bill Scanlon-Murphy (hope that's the right name - he was a British session musician for the Beach Boys might be right - he was told by Dennis Wilson that there was supposed to be a 40,000 shipment of drugs to come in that night - http://www.compulsiononline.com/index2.htm Those trunks - it would explain those trunks making them not such a coincidence but a signification - those trunks have always bothered me - perhaps Tex didn't find the stash and Charlie came back for a dual reason - However the down side of Scanlon Murphy's theory is the "Live Freaky, Die Freaky" which puts a lot of the blame on the victims and I'm not sure how I feel about that matter - [/quote] Alas Court, 'tis not to be. :'( I did remember that you had thoughts along those lines, but for some reason it hadn't really clicked for me 'til now. I get so torn on motives as many do. I think that one reason we have trouble is that without more info it is difficult to ascribe one motive to both nights except in two scenarios: (1) HS which makes no sense and (2) copycat to get BB out, which has some logic even in it illogical nature. Shit, the police publicly said that the LaBianca murders were a copycat for Tate. Re: "Live Freaky..." I keep coming back to James Breckenridge's quote from Linda a few days after the murder. Something like, "They're killing pigs pretending to be freaks out there [LA]." I think that is a tremendously important point that folks on here don't seem to want to discuss. Alright, not the thread for it but here goes: Say Tex/Charlie/Bruce knew about a big drug shipment to Cielo and also that Susan Struthers wanted to find someone to off her mother/stepfather, but the Family isn't really into murder yet. Hinman was a total anomaly that spun out of control on them. Then after Hinman, Charlie gets back from San Diego with Schramm and learns Bobby has been arrested. This means that ultimately the trail will lead back to him if BB/Hinman is investigated properly. The girls come up with the copycat idea..."lets kill some pigs and make it look like Hinman so they let BB go". OK, not the best plan, but we got nothing else and just sitting here will only lead to being arrested. So what pigs do we kill. Charlie/Tex see they can kill two or three birds with one stone in Cielo. They can grab the drugs or money that is to pay for them assuming a cash transaction, scare the shit out of Melcher by showing he is vulnerable where he lives [lived - CM knew this], and also do the copycat thing. Why else write "Pig" in blood, but for copycat? Off Tex goes, due to his "debt" to CM from Lotsapoppa, with some brainwashed, drug addled skanks to help out. They "know" that only VF, AF and the houseboy will be there...only ST and JS are there two and things get a little out of control to say the least. They think SP is the houseboy, so don't look too hard for him. The next night, they drive around looking for another copycat until CM calls a Straight Satan connection and finds out where the parents of that chick who wanted her mom and stepdad hit live...then he drives right over since he knows the neighborhood from hanging with True next door. Same MO with the tying up and then stabbing, the writing on the walls and the "hoods" on the victims (CM has a thing about dead people looking at him...that's why he hooded JS when he and Bruce went back to see if the drugs were there and just missed). That also explains why the killers thought they had time for a shower and a snack...they knew no one would be coming since they were acting at the bidding of the daughter...who else would show up in the middle of the night. IMO only the guys knew the motives beyond copycat. Tex can't change his story since he endorsed HS at his trial and since at parole hearings. Bruce can't talk since he'd put himself at the scene of Cielo and F-up his parole chances. Why would Clem talk? He's free. Charlie don't snitch...he maintains an element of control if he knows what really happened and we don't. Whaddya think learned TLB-ites? (sorry for the long post)
The interesting thing in that is they were killing off all teh connections they possibly could have and I am trying to figure out why. Lotsapoppa---drug dealer, presumed dead, but not. (connection thought gone) Hinman-supposed drug dealer, dead. Cielo victims-to know what was perhaps inside those trunks to me is a key. Look at the evidence photos. There is white cloth hanging out from the side. I owned black similiar trunks to those, and they were a bitch. It looks like someone opened and shut them in a hurry. I am sure they were not shipped with the piece of whatever hanging out the side. If indeed the trunks had a false bottom and stuff was taken-or if the killers thought that there were drugs in there, and bingo there werent, perhaps the shit hit the fan. Or maybe, if we assume CM and crew went back to Cielo, that could be the reason for his return. Perhaps Tex didnt "look" hard enough for the score, or couldn't find the score. It is possible the trunks got knocked off kilter in the struggle and run for the door, and they popped open, but who of the killers would pick them up and place them like they were found? But we have what looks like a killing of potential suppliers of drugs-and if we assume that is the motive, then who was to take over the business, and who would be supplying. If we look at the Rostau factor in it all-that adds to the mix.
And finally, at least for the moment,the slash on Abigail's face. Lets assume, for now, that somehow the word of Voytek's MDA possible business got out. He was on an experiment, Abigail had some in her system, and he was due to pick up people from Canada at the airport. Let's assume, that somehow the dates got mixed up on the shipment, and the killers thought that the drugs should have already been there. But they weren't. With Voytek being the assumed connection-and no one admitting to the great gash on Abigail's face, it is quite possible to say-the slash on Abigail's face was possibly done to get Voytek to spill where the shipment/drugs were are on the property. That is making the giant assumption that indeed there were drug dealings involved and not just a party factor use.
...and it would explain why Suzan Laberge forgave Watson and testified in his behalf. Something that I find hard to understand. Courtney in that story you posted by Dunne it said there were many parties at Polanski's house. They moved in on February 15, 1969 and left for Europe in March sometime. Sharon returned in late July. VF and AF had to be the hosts of all those. It's not hard to image Charlie and skanks attending some of those parties. Or Kasabian she met that actor hitchhiking maybe he invited her to one of VF's parties. There was the allegation that VF raped her or something or other. A lot of stars knew Charlie back in the day according to Neil Young "a lot more who denied it". Maybe Watson and company was expected, maybe that is who VF was waiting on. That would explain why Abby waved to skanky. If the large gash on AF's face was done to make VF talk they had to know Abby was VF's girlfriend.
One more thought Cat they were friends with Doyle and Dawson who were known to be big time drug dealers. Voytek was unemployed and seen them making large sums of money in the drug trade. I can see him dabbling in selling drugs. Maybe that is why Abby was thinking about kicking him to the curb the people he was hanging with scared her. Or VF needed the income because he knew he was losing the Folger fortune.
Doyle and Harrigan are both originally from Canada and the reference to Voytek picking up the Canadians could be about them. And a shipment. If Voy was indeed branching out, and he was stepping on someone's turf, then we have issues as well. Can't see all the money around the ranch coming from just strictly dune buggies and stolen credit cards. Cant see Rosemary having 2 mil in an estate from the stock market. If she was that good, why do the dress boutique? She didn't really have to work in that case. There is something hinky with Suzan forgiving Tex only...if she was all that forgiving, you would think she would have went public for the others too. Too many dead or presumed dead drug dealers. Leaving the question who was to take over the business...where was the supply coming from..
