[quote author=Birds Away link=topic=2713.msg13330#msg13330 date=1204885312] Notice how she and Charlie were deceived. She was very careful not to blame him. [/quote] Looks better she thought at parole time.
I suppose you have to give her credit for sticking with it. Despite having a snowball's chance in hell of ever being released, she still keeps trying.
I just find her annoying. Her little girl lost act is sickening and I can't stand her. So let her try, she wont get out. The only thing she is doing is ruining the chances perhaps for the others.
[quote author=ecnivb link=topic=2713.msg13405#msg13405 date=1204927911] If Charlie was deceived, who was he deceived by? ??? [/quote] She doesn't know. She could not, at that point, yet bring herself to blame him.
if she had stayed as the star wittness,then Sadie Babblemouth would have been out by now. Maybe Charlie did have a strong hold on her,something forced her to change her mind,bet she wishes she had`nt
The meeting she had with him in December 1969 did that. Before that she was willing to cooperate, but recanted after that, so you can suppose he did have influence on her. Among the defendants, she was the first to denounce him, but still, and I guess it is because of her fickle personality, she seems untruthful and gameful.
[quote author=ecnivb link=topic=2713.msg13405#msg13405 date=1204927911] If Charlie was deceived, who was he deceived by? ??? [/quote] Himself!
Charlie was, IMO, "deceived" by his years in prison. In order to deal with the world he lived in there he had to adopt a radically different ethical stance than people "on the outside" generally have in life. Add in his interest for alternative philosophies, mysticism, hypnotism, psychedelics, and it's easy to see how such a violent outlook on life could become his main way of thinking. He's repeatedly said in interviews that death is an everyday occurrence for him in prison, seeing people killed. So obviously he's become completely hardened to this. He gave his friends/followers this way of seeing things too. He taught them psychedelic prison ethics. As for why Charlie felt he had the truth or knew the truth or spoke the truth (i.e., metaphysical truth), it's very likely that he had a significant 'mystical' experience in prison. He alludes to such an experience but rarely details it. I would suggest looking into the phenomena of kundalini awakenings. A tremendous energy can be felt piercing the skull and then a blissful state of consciousness unfolds. It truly feels like you are the 'chosen one' simply because it is so unusual and so far from the mundane. This experience can happen to anyone if the conditions are right. In the meditative traditions they induce it through breathing exercises and other meditative training. Manson was at least familiar with some forms of meditation if he had studied Buddhism etc. And my personal theory is that while sitting around in an isolation cell doing nothing it happened. His thinking-mind ceased and he knew himself as just an awareness, just like a lizard on a rock, beyond the influence of words which are the product of culture. This is the best explanation I can offer for most of Charlie's philosopy: "thinking is stinking", "come to now", "my philosophy is: don't think" and so on.
1) The Wooly Hophead committed the crimes that put him in prison. Therefore, any "deception" experienced on his part is immaterial. While time in prison may have hardened him, those tendencies were already there. 2) The Wooly Hophead is ever so dramatic. While violence can, and does, occur in prison, there are not inmate on inmate killings occuring everyday. Once again, he is full of shit. 3) Alcoholics call that a moment of clarity. The best thing to pierce the Wooly Hopheads brain would be a round from a Mini-14. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Interesting comments about the sources of Manson's philosophy. I think Manson was influenced by Scientology to an extent that he knows terminology, "cease to exist, come to now", etc. I question Manson's self-discipline to practice contemplation, meditation, and/or other spiritual practices, especially since music (listening, playing, writing, etc.) seemed to be his way to cope with the tedium of prison life. On the other hand, he may have genuinely been sincerely involved with Scientology as well. Or squirreled concepts and teachings (this is from Scientology), just nuggets learned and verbalized here and there. I wonder whether Manson was involved with Zen Buddhism since there are some concepts Manson used that smacked of Zen, eg. 'no thought, no ego, no mind'.....that sort of talk. Zen Buddhism was adopted by many Japenese military personnel prior to and during WWII (in a country that viewed the emperor as godlike). The kamikaze pilots were often Zen Buddhists. Apparently, without attachment and in a "no mind" state, killing is possible, without the seeds of karma, etc. Some of this became public recently with David Victoria's book, 'Zen at War'. The 'dying' daily talk, before the death of the physical body, can be sourced to Eastern religions, philosophies, etc. I don't know if this comes from Scientology or not. With some of the Eastern philosophies an assumption is made that we are pure or naked awareness, enlightened already, etc. We don't achieve this state or obtain it, one can realize it (Self-realization). With this in mind, a lot people experience their real self from time to time but may not understand or articulate what happened. It is hard to say what Manson experienced genuinely, hallucinated, misunderstood, or made up.
I think we can simplify this quite easily. What Manson experienced was a trip - type "ego" - returned? Not yet! Ir was bad news when combined with excess drugs and as he describes it "am I to be blamed forever for ONE PSYCHOTIC EPISODE". I wonder if he even has just one person inside who really knows him who shows a little kindness. And not for bootleg souvenirs to boost the State wages. And if so how do they see him - broken, just a loon, cantankerous... who is he or is he noone at the ebd of the disection?
What occured to me is that I feel to much emphisis is placed on Manson. Yes, he was controlling, manuliputive and abusive but those kids chose to do whatever they did. From dumpster diving to robbery, creepycrawlling and murder each one had ample opportunity to run or not participate in the crimes. I'm not defending him, just an observation. FB
I think CM is and was a user of people. I think his interest in all of these different philosophies had nothing to do with expanding his mind but as tools to use to acquire followers. These followers were tools to acquire sex, food, drugs, money, etc. Plain and simply CM is a con man and would add anything to his bag of tricks he thought someone else might buy into. That's why he had pieces of so many philosophies. Try one, if it doesn't work, move on to the next. Prison only honed his skills at manipulation and we see the results. Unfortunately, although his manipulative skills served him well, some of the other life skills we use every day seemed beyond him. His response to anyone who did not conform to his wishes or who had an agenda of their own had a decidedly prison-like, base instinct quality. He responded to any challenge with aggression and to any disappointment or perceived disloyalty with violence.
