Discussion in 'What's Your Theory' started by saintpat, Nov 14, 2011.
cupid came from the movie "mondo hollywood" where he played the character cupid.
If my memory serves me, it was Michelle Phillips who made the comment about BB's fingernails and overall hygene. We know he was a filthy pig. He was arrested wearing the same clothes he killed Hinman in days earlier. That's a barfable offense.... uke: and incredibly stupid.
Well that clears that up. thanks beauders. I always wondered whey the nickname Cupid, now I know.
Personally, I reckon BB was/is bi. And as someone who came from nothing and who was living in on his wits, he had to rely on whatever resources he personally possessed or which came to hand, including his sexuality. Photos of him at that time show a pretty boy, a beautiful boy, any kind of boy in fact. That would render him vulnerable on the streets in a tough town (and later on, in jail, even more vulnerable), so maybe I'm about to answer my own question: looking how he looked at that time, how could he be taken seriously for a Man??? Hence, his attempting to prove himself in some very macho areas, sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll.
As for personal hygiene or lack of ... BB lived in a world where NO ONE took particular care of themselves and everyone was as skanky as hell, so within the context of that, he was considered a catch.
It's an interesting philosophical point, the effects of having no boundaries at all. These people experienced something approaching totally freedom: they were in a position to do whatever they wanted in terms of day to day activities, a situation not even granted to the extremely wealthy who still have to take care of business. And look what they did with it. BB has flourished in prison, he's done what he could have done outside had he not distracted himself with so much else. He needed the boundaries prison has given him, something to kick against and focus his mind ...
Just re-read Coonhound's post ... inflated ego's attached to inferiority complexes ... what a fantastically salient point and more relevant to TLB than it gets credit for. Always the need to keep ahead, keep the edge over the followers lest they become the leaders. And it's also a combination found in not a few rock stars ... and what did BB and CM aspire to ...???
I have a few questions.
1. The trunks: I always thought that the one trunk had the horse saddle in it that Debra Tate wanted to pick up that night.
2. I think maybe drugs are not the answer. Voytec wanted to be a movie director like Roman. If you read all the most known books on the subject you get the feeling Voytec was shooting movies and lots of pics. Were there some movies people did not want to get out? I am not thinking about the "ones" that were rumored to be in the loft. I don't remember which book but one stated that the only thing Chatman found missing that morning was a tri pod????
3. Did Manson run into Abigal at Eslan (sp) that weekend? Didn't he know her from the Height free clinic?
Just a few different things to think about.
Has anyone else ever heard about the saddle Virgo is tlking about? I've never heard that before.
I think Voytek was an opportunist and took pics like the paparazzi do now. My guess is he would sell them to the highest bidder if he could. He was a "hanger on" in Roman, Sharon and Gibby's crowd with access to lots of celebs to shoot. Trying to make a name for himself any way he could. Sometimes he is referred to as a screenwriter, actor, author, photographer, etc. in actuality he was none of the above.
I think I heard about the Saddle from a Debra interview in the past few years????
Exactly Freebird....just a want to be.....so did he take some pictures or movies that someone wanted gone???
There are several references to his taking pictures in various books but no proof of anything that would need to be hidden or disposed of.....only speculation.
I support the drug theory for two reasons, drugs are a useful tool for people being used as tools through mind control and manipulation. That's the big picture, of course drugs played a major role in the entire thing. But it wasn't just about getting high and listening to Charlie that day on Cielo.
In Marlin Marynik's book Charles Manson Now, he interviewed some people and one of the people he interviewed was a woman who was good friends with Susan Adkins, a woman who was at her side until she died. Susan told her before she died that as far as she was concerned it was a drug deal gone bad. Susan said they went to the Tate residence earlier in the evening because Tex wanted to get in on some big transaction that Frykowski and Seabring were going to be in on. While they were there Abigail Folger even took Linda Kasabian in the bathroom and did a line of coke with her. Apparently, Frykowski was the one who was balking the hardest against letting Tex in on the deal. He basically told the group to get out. This made Tex mad and they called the Tate residence prior to going back over, when Charlie basically told Tex, you gotta do what you gotta do, after Tex explained the situation (this is Susan talking, remember; not Charlie, but it coincides with what he's claimed over the years). There was a call made to the Tate residence and during that call Tex told Frykowski they were coming back over, Frykowski threatened to call the cops if they did, which was probably why Tex cut the line. It might also explain why Frykowski was on the couch too. We all know what took place when they returned. I agree with this theory also because of the police interview/polygraph of Roman Polanski. The detective refers to the murder victims on Cielo as Voytek and the others. Not as Sharon and the others, or your wife and her friends. The police saw Voytek as the focus of the murderers rage, and so do I when you compare the amount of stab wounds he received compared the the others. It was overkill, someone was mad and it was mainly at Voytek Frykowski. That is why I support the drug burn theory.
Interesting, StH, I too have just read the same book.
My question is: .Were records of phone calls kept by Telephone companies in 1969 as this would certainly help in clearing up whether a call was made to Cielo (assuming it came from Spahn )
If they were kept: Where are they and has anyone ever seen/heard of them?
And I can see the similarity of scenarios between BB/Hinman and TW/Cielo .
That is BB told CM that GH wasn't playing ball.
TW told CM that VF wasn't playing ball.
And on both occasion CM said " man up, do what you have to do".
Have I caught your drift or am I way off.
Skippy the hippy - I have some problems with this theory, all of which I don't really have time to delve into now, but first and foremost, I find it somewhat unbelievable that Woytek threaten to call the cops on Tex if he returned. If one subscribes to this theory then Woytek, and Jay as well, are (allegedly) involved in drugs, and have just been (allegedly) involved in a major deal. Doesn't quite make sense that a drug dealer would call the cops on another drug dealer because he wasn't interested in sharing the profits from his illicit activities and wanted to make sure the cops kept this other drug dealer away. He calls the cops on Tex, and Tex blabs about what he is (allegedly) up to and the fact that both using and dealing are going on on the premises. See? It makes more sense to me that Tex would have cut the wires simply to prevent the occupants inside from dialing out for help and thus give him and his co-conspirators a greater sense of control over the situation and more time to commit their crimes. As for Linda allegedly snorting cocaine with Abigail earlier in the day, I'd have to consult the autopsy reports. If no cocaine was present in Abigail's system then this is bogus. I also don't see the amount of overkill in the case of Woytek as necessarily indicative of the fact that he was the primary target. In Watson's own words, Woytek was "enormously powerful" and therefore he put up much more of a fight and proved much easier to kill. Atkins and Watson both struggled with Woytek before he was ultimately overpowered and murdered. The police may have initially seek Woytek as the primary focus of the rage, but they were wrong about many things in the beginning.
Er, sorry. Woytek proved much more difficult to kill.
I agree with you Leigh. If it is drugs (and I'm not saying it was or wasn't) why did they leave drugs there? If it was just a simple 'drug burn' why not go and shoot everyone dead with a gun? Knives are personal. Just like the roberry motive I've heard about? Seventy two bucks from Gibbie they got, and yet there was cash visible on Sharon's nightstand and Jay had cash on him and also Parent's wallet contained a few bucks. So robbery doesn't make sense either. Tate/LaBianca: the hardest puzzle to solve and maybe will forever remain unsolved as to true motive? Hmmmmm
Is it not possible that the police focused on Voytek as the primary victim because he sustained the greatest degree of overkill among a group of victims who had not been merely murdered but slaughtered?
He was stabbed 51 times, shot twice, and bashed over the head 13 times with a gun butt -- so hard the grips broke off. This is not to diminish in any way the overkill the other victims sustained; however, you have to admit that what was inflicted on Voytek was way over the top.
It would, I suggest, be a very short and logical leap for police to presume that the one with the worst wounds was the one the killers were after, and making the largest point with, pardon the pun. Everyone else was to a greater or lesser degree collateral damage.
It may also be, as others have suggested, that Voytek -- and Gibby -- refused to just lay down nicely and die. They ran, they fought -- which could account for the greater number of stab wounds they sustained relative to Jay and Sharon. Sharon was at a significant disadvantage being eight months pregnant, and Jay was immobilized fairly early on.
I don't buy the "drug burn" scenario, any more than I buy Helter Skelter. I simply do not believe that any one of those stoned-out losers could sustain a coherent thought long enough to put together something that sophisticated, even with the Hophead pulling all the strings. I also don't think it was entirely random, as borne out by Dill's trip to the Manson sites and how you don't just "stumble" upon the Cielo Drive house.
I don't know what happened, but I doubt it was drugs. There were drugs in plain view, as Eddy noted, in Sharon's bedroom, in Gibby's room, and, if they'd thought to look for it, in Jay's car as well. There was money in plain view. It wasn't about the drugs and it wasn't about the money.
I think it was about Charlie exploiting the personality disorders and drug abuse of those around him to get revenge on people who he believed had "wronged" him. Whether they were the actual people or not -- or just stand-ins for them -- didn't really matter.
Kind of like killing a mockingbird, huh?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember Bugliosi being at at odds with the police for not getting to the telephone records before they were destroyed. So I think records were kept of calls, but only for a brief period of time.
There are some interesting points brought up in this. How about how Cielo and Waverly were meant to be copy-cat murders, to help spring Beausoleil from jail? The phone lines were not cut at Hinman's or at the LaBianca's, but they were cut at Cielo. Some copy-cat, aye? So what's the reason for cutting phone lines in just once excursion? Or should I turn that around and ask what the reason was for not cutting the phone lines at the other locations? Something changed the pattern at Cielo. What was it?
The two separate occasions when witnesses reported hearing unusual sounds from Cielo Drive have always been a problem for me. In the Garretson interview, he mentioned quite a stretch of time between Parent's departure and hearing the "firecrackers" going off. I've felt, for a long time, there were two, distinctly different series of events that took place that night. And to be certain, I don't buy into the fact that Manson was at Cielo that night. It seems to be generally accepted that Manson debriefed Watson on his return to Spahn Ranch. If that did happen, it's logical to assume Watson mentioned Folger and Frykowski's attempted escapes and how they were killed out on the lawn. I don't consider Manson to be a mastermind of anything, but I do think he had enough street smarts to know Cielo Drive was the last place on earth he wanted to be. Him going to Cielo to see what his children had done was as big a line of smoke as cutting Shea into multiple pieces. Little man and big talk.
It's worth mentioning that drugs were found at Cielo Drive, to suggest the butchers weren't there to get drugs. But when you realize how insignificant those amounts really are, you can see why no one would have given them the time of day. Using Helter Skelter as my reference, 6.9 grams of marijuana were found in a plastic bag in a living room cabinet. Back in that time period, a quarter ounce bag was 7 grams. And that quarter ounce bag was referred to as a "dime bag", because it sold for $10. If I had been in that house house killing everything that drew breath, that dime bag would have been the last thing on my mind. Do any of you have a concept of just how insignificant a quarter ounce of pot really is?
Seriously, I suspect had any of the killers even opened that cabinet, they might have simply ignored such an insignificant amount.
There were 30 grams of hash and 10 MDA capsules in the Folger/Frykowski bedroom. Now we're up over an ounce, which is something to be taken into consideration. For personal consumption. For street sales, who would really care about it? Back then, you get generally get at least double, and sometimes triple the price for hash. If we give it the benefit of the doubt and assume it was worth three times what pot sold for, we're still talking less than $130.
If someone robs a bank and leaves rolled coins whilst taking only bills, is it fair to say money really wasn't the motive behind the crime?
To really drive the nail home on how insignificant the drugs found at Cielo really were, let's look at the DeCarlo marijuana trial, where he had been popped with 19 pounds. Not grams or ounces, but 19 pounds. During that trial, someone (I'm too lazy to go dig out the name) testified they were trying to put a deal together for some 12 or 14 kilograms, to be purchased for $400.
12 kilograms comes out to 26.4 pounds. Which is 422.4 ounces. Which is 11,975.04 grams. Eleven thousand, nine hundred, seventy-five grams. At a total of $400, that breaks down to a wholesale price of 3.34 cents per gram. 6.9 grams at that price comes out to an overwhelming 23 cents. OK, OK, so it's actually 23.04 cents. I just can't imagine someone dealing in drugs missing out on less than 25¢ worth of marijuana, can you? If the killers had been there for drugs, they certainly would have grabbed that bag on their way out the door. To brutally butcher five people and then leave all of 25¢ worth of pot behind is inexcusable. For people like Jem and cooltide, 25¢ is about 16p, at today's rate of exchange.
Even at today's street prices, the quantity is still insignificant. A quarter ounce bag will generally sell for $40 to $60, depending on quality.
Point well taken. My particular vice of choice in my misspent youth was lemon gin, so I plead utter ignorance about what 6.9 grams -- or 6,900 pounds, for that matter -- of pot looks like.
I'm not entirely convinced, however, that it was about drugs, or money, or Helter Skelter, or a copycat crime to get Bobby Beausoliel out of jail. I still hold it was about Manson and his perfect storm of mind control, personality disorder, drug abuse, and desire for revenge -- but not necessarily doing the time for any of the above.
And maybe that is the actual motive, I don't know enough to say yea or nay. No one does. All any of us can do is go with our gut. My gut leaves me disagreeing with you on motive, but this wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about anything. Personally, I think if Manson were truly trying to strike out a a society that had shunned him, he would have been wetting his own steel at Cielo and Waverly. Instead, the blowhard, wannabe wuss was hanging at Spahn Ranch whilst teen-aged girls were butchering human beings. Manson talks a big talk, but take a look at Manson's life and you quickly see he's really only a chump loser, who likely would have ended up doing federal time had he been huckled for jaywalking. Bugliosi tried painting Manson up to be some kind of brainwashing mastermind, but take a look at Manson's life and tell me how much of that you truly believe. If Manson could brainwash people and get what he wanted, why was he living with clap-infested kids in the filth of Spahn Ranch? Why wasn't he living the high life, amongst the beautiful people in Hollywood?
As wrong as the theory might be, I still think Cielo was all about drugs. I believe in the theory so much, I even question how much prior knowledge Manson had of the Cielo murders.
Of course we've all been aware all along that Cielo was the only residence where anyone took the time to cut the phone lines. But I had never taken the time to stop and really think that through. Why just at Cielo? Why not cut the phone lines at Hinman's home or at the LaBianca's home?
In Will you Lie For Me (or is that "Die", I keep forgetting), Watson carefully notes Manson told him to get the wire cutters out of his dune buggy, so the lines could be cut. Why were they so careful to cut the phone lines at Cielo, but didn't bother cutting them at Waverly?
Again, none of us know the answer, but there are a lot of possibilities. Were they just high enough to be paranoid on the night of 8 August? Were they high enough they let their guard down on the night of 9 August? Were they cocksure with Manson being present on 9 August they felt no need to cut phone lines? Did they need to phones at Waverly to remain operational? Or was this alleged story of Atkins' giving us clues that the killers needed to make sure no one called out of Cielo for help? As much as we like to think otherwise, we humans are pretty predictable, based on our previous behavior. And that includes criminal behavior. So why was the decision made to cut the phone lines at Cielo?
I have to say I just cannot place any credence in anything Atkins had to say. First she stabbed Tate, then she didn't. First she tasted Tate's blood, then she didn't. First she stabbed Frykowski, then she didn't stab anyone. She said Manson went into the LaBianca's alone, yet Watson admits he went in the house with Manson. Atkins had a rocky childhood and she came out of it needing a lot of attention. Attention she didn't mind getting by any means possible. If we believe her, then there are a couple of bikers buried behind the house at Barker Ranch. Various Manson associates have said the murders were copy-cats, but other than writing in blood and stabbing, there's not much in common. Various Manson associates have said the murders were random and designed to ignite a race war. If they were so random, then what of the "hit list" Atkins boasted about? If the murders were to incite a race war, then why place Rosemary LaBianca's wallet in a predominately white neighborhood? When Atkins says Folger did a line with Kasabian that evening, how much of that can anyone believe? Did Folger watch Kasabian do a line? Is the entire story a fabrication?
Cats and I were talking on the phone a few days back. I had commented how Kasabian had once referred to Frykowski as "the big man", but in the photo of him listening to Tate's baby, his hands seemed rather small to me. Cats, I finally got enough gumption to check the autopsy report, which says he was 70.5 inches tall. 5'10.5". Not necessarily a small man, but not necessarily what I would consider a big man, either. I remarked to Cats that I wondered why Kasabian had called Frykowski "big". And Cats immediately suggested Kasabian might not have been referring to him as big in physical stature, but was possibly referring to him as the big man in a possible drug deal. If the drug rumors are true, if Frykowski was trying to establish himself as the MDA source in L.A., then it's easy to see how people would refer to him as the big man, i.e., the guy calling the shots. See how a potentially valid observation can suddenly make you look at things from a new angle?