Question for those who believe Cielo drug motive

On the subject of motive, I guess it can be complex:

If Sadie or Tex participated in the murders because they believed they were killing to bring on Helter Skelter, that is their motive.

If Charlie was playing a different game, he might have had a different motive -- but if he convinced them to kill and convinced them they needed to do it to start the race war/revolution, that would still be their motive.

Without some serious evidence that hasn't come to light yet and doesn't seem likely to at this point, I don't see how I could become convinced that Charlie was "moving the chess pieces around" and causing the murders to pull of a big drug burn or land a huge pile of cash. Either might be a byproduct of TLB (there was the coin collection, for instance), but not a primary reason to have people stabbed hundreds of times with their blood used as paint for obscure messages.

I could certainly buy that Charlie had all this power over these people and he got fed up when the 'pigs' rejected his music after he was building himself up for a rock-star future and found himself kicked back down to a 'garbage people' lifestyle, and the pressures of arrests and bikers and his followers starting to cause more trouble than they were worth, and deep inside he knows he's going to end up back in prison again (forever this time) -- and he punched the 'F--k It' button in his head and decided to strike back at a world that he felt just wasn't treating him fairly.

In short, the real meaning of Helter Skelter in Charlie's head may have been simply: "I will have my people butcher because I can, and I choose to," or "If I'm going to be going down fast, I'm dragging everyone with me."

I think Saint Pat has got most of this right on the nail. But, I do disagree about Beausoleil. Yes, he killed Hinman ... read his website, he says so. I also think whatever lies he's told, either to Oui magazine or to the court in 1970 or to the various parole boards have been told to establish 1 truth: he was never a "member" per se of the Family. He knew them, he hung with him ... he also had his own thing going on outside Manson. Manson, seeking to get everyone's hands dirty and implicate anyone, ensures Beausoleil has Atkins, Brunner etc with him when he goes to get his cash back off of Hinman. Atkins and Brunner are there to see that Manson's work is done, that Hinman is worked over and that Beausoleil does it ... if they report back that he dipped out, all Champagne Charlie has to do is tip the Straight Satans off where Bobby is. Either way, BB is keen demonstrate how far out of the scene he was, Manson was only too keen to show far in he was (Jeez, he tried to tie The Beatles to him and they were notoriously loyal to no-one except themselves ... and even then ...)

Manson & Davis were convicted of Gary Hinman's murder along with BB. BB, in his undoubted arrogance and cockiness, got himself into a scene in a city that was way way over his head in terms anything he'd experienced previously, found himself in a situation or several of them, that he couldn't handle and he panicked. He made a total mess, basically, of anything that wasn't seduction or creativity. Which is sad, as he was and still is a genuine talent.

BB interests me. Out of all the various skags, skanks and ne'er do wells that constituted Manson's associates, Beausoleil was the only one who could have made something of himself in the outside world. His fatal flaw that I can discern (bring on the Greek Chorus) is that he felt the need to prove himself Hip, prove himself a Stud, prove himself a Tough Biker, prove himself a Muso, prove himself Whatever Was The Prevailing Concept of Masculinity wherever he found himself ... inshort a Man. My question, if this was the case ... would be WHY??? What insecurities, doubts, fears preyed on his mind in that moment between waking and sleeping when you're most receptive to the subtle voices of your subconscious.

And he seems to have had a place carved out for him inside. He has run a business, can do his art, music, whatever, a lot probably that no-one else could do in that environment. I wonder if there's been a compact twixt him and the authorities. You ain't ever getting out, thanks to who your friends were, but within that, we, the authorities, recognise that anyone else would have been paroled years ago. So we'll make Life Inside a bit better for you than would otherwise have been the case. You can reserve the right to apply for parole and if you get it, good for you, but don't count on it.

Oh, absolutely. More ties than you or I, more than Paul McCartney or Wavy Gravy, Ken Kesey, Uncle Tom Cobley and all, but also less than Susan Atkins, Tex Watson, Pat Krenwinkel et al.

It's probable he did keep up with what Charlie Boy got up to: he knew him, their orbits crossed over for a time, it's only natural that he would, he was a prt of things. But ... I would say that his part of things wasn't as great as others. And this frustrated Manson, who while he loved his harem, was more than keen to get some men in there: after all, Charlie was was nothing if not a chauvinist pig. Beausoleil was not under the Manson thumb, and was therefore a loose cannon, of uncertain loyalty: Tex, in a similar position in many ways in that he came and went and did as he pleased blew it over the drug burn with Lottsapoppa and fell right into the devil's hands. I'm wondering if the Gary Hinman was CM's way of tie-ing BB to him through blackmail, bribery and fear. Thing was, it didn't work as BB high-tailed it out of there first chance he got, only he was too stupid/stoned to realise he took all the incriminating evidence with him and, rightly so, he got caught. These guys were King Midas in Reverse, everything they touched turned to poop.

Shell,
I think you nailed it regarding BB. He was more a part of the group than he wants to admit but not to the extent that TW, MB or SA was. He says he was interested in the music, that's why he hung around the ranch. I don't buy that story, I think it was a soft spot to land when Bummer Bob got run out of everywhere else. All he had to do was bring a couple of new loves and/or some dope and he was welcomed back like a long lost brother.
FB

"He says he was interested in the music, that's why he hung around the ranch."

And given his allegedly priapic tastes, plenty of willing bodies too ...

Gary Hinman's body didn't fall into the 'willing' category

Minor technical point is that the gas station where Rosemary LaBianca's wallet was left was located in Sylmar, not Glendale. Charlie intended for it to be found by a black person, but Kasabian hid it where it was only ever going to be found by an employeee (which took four months to happen). Sylmar (like Glendale) has only ever had a small, single digit percentage black population. The Soul/God couldn't even get that right.

Indeed not, Saint Pat: exactly the contrary.

No massacre, no tea party.

Journal of a thousand miles begins with one step and all that, but point taken.

"I theorize he was trying to throw Beausoleil a bone, by getting as much distance between the authorities and Brunner as he could."

Out of all of them, BB had the best chance of NOT being involved in what was coming down. He was talented enough, smart enough, and had his own scene together. Yet he allowed himself, willingly, to be duped into doing a whole load of stuff, which ended with his killing Gary Hinman. At which point, panic sets in and he starts asking himself, "How did I get here??? What have I done???" But by then, it's too late and he does a bunk (UK parlance), but does it badly ... Once caught, lie after lie ensues to get life back to what it was like in June 1969 ...

Mike, maybe since Sandra Good was 8 months pregnant at the time he thought they might just let her out on her own recognizance whereas he was nervous that Mary might spill the beans

well for sure Mary would have more to blab than Sandra being at the Hinman house and all...

Wouldn't $600 be kind of steep for a person using stolen credit cards for 1969? Does anyone have any idea?

Lot of things could figure into that -- she was obviously a flight risk with no "real" address, and I don't know what her criminal record looked like but that could be a factor.

1-Why Atkins and Brunner though? I think Atkins hit the nail on the head (in her book) when she said Charlie used the fact that her and Mary both had children that could be used as leverage by Manson. If it wasn't said out loud it was implied and the women understood this.

2-I agree, good points Shelly.

3-Bobby's insecurities and need to prove himself are excellent observations. Some of it might have to do with the fact that he came from nothing. Whatever meager things he had attained(inlcuding his own mini-harem) were not given to him like so many young men/women on the Hollywood scene, but they came from his being a self made man. On the other hand I believe some of it may have to do with certain homosexual tendencies he had. The times were more understanding but it wasnt exactly masculine or cool to be gay/bisexual. I am unsure how much he "fought it" or how much of it he did as a means to an end. Seems others that are rumored to be involved w/ him in that way, there was something Bobby could gain from them, ie Kenneth Anger. In this respect Bobby thought very much like Charlie, however much he would like to avoid being comared to him. Perhaps this was one of the reasons they bumped heads, they were so much alike, each trying to maneuver each other into a position where the other was to gain. This didnt necessarily have to be monetary but also included from what I gather, influence which was big for both as a salve to both of their inflated egos. Egomaniacs w/ inferiority complexes, rather an interesting combination that I think applies to both these men. Thats my 2 pennies at least.

Coonhound you hit it - CM and BB soul mates sexing it to the top, genders irrelevant.

Thanks TooLate. While I am a straight/heterosexual man, I can appreciate the fact that there are handsome men and why ladies are attracted to them. I also know that looks aren't everything, especially w/ confident men who are sweet talkers w/ the gift of gab. That being said I just dont see what anyone, women or men :fk: , saw in "Bummer Bob" or Mr. Manson. From what I have read, someone mentioned that Bobby's fingernails were the dirtiest they had every seen(lil' help?) and that he rarely took a shower :bx: . He sure must have had some unseen qualities 'cause I dont get it. Cupid? Excuse me while I uke:

I always figured BB was called Cupid the way a 6-foot-6, 350-pound man would be nicknamed "Tiny."