Possible senarios -

According to sound patterns, autopsies, and blood -

Let's consider this - please, please add your suppositions or your ideas - mine are only recent opinions after a combination of evidence.

• The group gets back from the restaurant.  (Notice Jay didn't eat - too much cocaine? - doesn't want to ruin his high?)
  
  Gibby takes a bit more of MDMA - Frykowky has been doing it for days so he's cruising anyhow.  She has already talked to her mother though, but waits to get really 'f--ked' up until her mother can't worry about her 'sounding more than a little high'
  
  Sharon and Gibby go to the bedrooms.  Jay follows Sharon with his beer - not sure if he knows that 'company is coming'  Sharon is not supposed to be at home - so the transaction has to be 'on the qt' because she's getting sick of the overt drug deals going down especially when the motherhood gene kicks in -
  
  Frykowky snoozes out on the sofa with one ear out for the person who is gong to deliver that night.
  
  In comes the delivery person - After summoning him - Voy stands on the porch to get high, try the stuff, pay etc. as to not wake up the girls.
  
  Jay has either come out with him, slightly after or wants to join the drug action.  (Either Jay is not supposed to be at Cielo, he was supposed to be in SF and cancelling that he was supposed to be with a girl (beating her with scarfs etc.  LOL) or maybe Voy puts him into the plan earlier in the evening.
  
  Then more 'assailants' arrive - they know what they are there for - exactly what they did - as they come uip Voy and Jay get paranoid and things begin to get out of control.  Jay is hit in the face and Sharon hears this happening.
  
  She gets up and runs to the door - Gibby hears the noises too and she comes out to the living room - Jay is knocked unconscious when he says "Oh God no" several times when he sees the girls and warns them to get out of there.
  
  Jay is knocked out - during the fighting - the first man has a bayonet - he starts to use it - the planned assailant joins in and pulls the gun which then he subdues Voy with by bringing it out and threatens death -
  
  The girls run back into the house to try and call for help.  They are followed by the other skank girls with knifes.  The skanks get the better of them by slashing their faces and trying to contain.  One of the men come in to tie them up until their fate can be decided.
  
  Gibby breaks free - Sharon still has the rope around her neck and is dazed and stunned.  However, with the rope tied she makes it out to the front porch confused.  She leaves her own blood on the trunks and the wall. -especially if Jay is coming to and she hears his voice. or his cries.
  
  Voy is ordered back inside - but he is very dazed from head wounds - one of the girls has been told to watch him - he makes a run for it and hence the leg wounds and one and half inch stab wounds.
  
  He gets away - Jay is shot several times - then Voy is shot as he still tried to make it out of the yard.
  
  
  Gibby heads out the back door, running.  Katie is behind her.
  
  Jay and Sharon are dragged back into the house in the reverse of what we are told - ( I've always had a problem with them moved twice) Most of the blood lose occurs on the porch.
  
  Jay is finished. Sharon is still conscious though very hurt - she starts pleading.  She is hung as the rope already around her neck is thrown over the rafter.
  
  She is finally killed as she hangs there then let down but before she can be contained fully, the other side of the rope needs a weight so they loop it around Jay who is deal also.
  
  Meanwhile - Steven Parent has either hidden in the guest house or has hidden outside because he walks up on the fray and can't get to the car.
  
  He makes a run for it - he almost makes it - he gets caught - he is stabbed and shot and then as he dives into the car he is shot again.  Flops over dead.  The watch that is severed outside the car is thrown in.  The car is pushed back and hits the fence.  Then the door is slammed.
  
  There is so much blood they most of the killers have to whip themselves off with a towel.  In fact they need two towels.  One is put over Jay's head like a hood - The towel is thrown in the backseat when the killers wipe down a lot of the fingerprints.
  
  The purple scarf - (Jay's) is used to write the pig word - maybe Sharon has had it making a band for a ponytail since the night is so hot = in the fray it is lost and picked up.
  
  The final gunshots at 4 am is the incident with Steven. 

Out of all the witness there is usually one that has a red herring story.  There were 5 sound witnesses - one was wrong as these statistics come into play -it might have been an engine backfiring that Mrs. Kott heard.  It also might have been the arrival of the send group of assailants in the old beat up car as they try and find a place to park and hide it.

Was that a lot or what?

Sounds plausible to me....theres too much about the official version that doesnt add up.  I personally believe that tex watson was at least somewhat acquainted with voytek in drug trafficking.  However, how do you discount kasabians account that parent was the first to be killed?...glad to be on this board.

That's a lot to swallow. But I do ponder your scenario and find it very interesting. 

The Caretaker, W Garretson said that Parent Mentioned seeing Abagail and Sharon through the window as he was walking towards the guest house. Parent asked questions about them, probably seeing Sharon in her panties got him worked up. So as he left he probably anticipated looking through the window again, but this time only to witness a murder. Parent is seen by one of the killers. He possibly is brought in the house where his glasses fall, leaving the "mysterious" unknown glasses. He escapes runs to his car where he almost makes it but is caught by Watson. Or he doesn't go in the house at all? He is seen through the window runs like hell to his car.  It is mentioned by one or two of the killers that Parents last words were "Please, I won't say anything". Why would he say that if he hadn't seen anything?Even if it did happen similar to the above, he could have been the first to die or the last.

Another question I ponder.  Why do all the killers stick to a similar story? Did someone set them all down and say "look, it happened like this"? And why would anyone want to change the story? To scare the public more?

Seems to me, The murders were taken advantage of with a sick devious plan to end the counter culture movement. Woodstock concert being 2 weeks away. Associating the crime with all sorts of things. From Death from Beatles record. Beach boys. Terry Melcher. It's as if the crime was made to be as interesting as possible. If it was planned this way, they did a damn good job, because  the crimes were a catalyst to so much.
Glad to be a part of this thread
Peace

DVS -

Your points are ones that stick in my head too - especially the comment from Parent about not saying anything.  The other is how the killers stick to the same overall story.  Granted Sadie changes her participation to suit her needs, but overall the order of how things came down stays the same.  Yet, here we all are questioning it because some things just do not fit.

Steven Parent's comment has always struck me as being odd too.  He obviously saw "something" which is why he said it. 

Courtney, your scenario is interesting, but what made you think that Jay didn't eat?  From what I understood about his autopsy, just because nothing was found doesn't mean that he didn't eat.  Maybe he had a fast metabolism??  Or maybe he just wasn't hungry.  Your comment about "too much cocaine" can't be correct because none was found in his system.  But, I think you were just trying to be humorous!!   I think he was supposed to go to San Francisco the next day (not Fri.), he had plans to meet Sharon's dad for dinner that night.

With Frykowski, it just seemed like massive overkill.  Many people think the conection lies with him.  It's certainly possible.  I just wish we knew more.

Interesting point by dvs1572 regarding the unknown eyeglasses.  If they were Steven's, wouldn't they have been match up with him somehow?  (such as, when he was identified at the morgue or when they were planning to bury him--you'd think that someone would've wondered where his glasses were) ???

So many things to think about and so many unanswered questions.  Maybe someday we'll actually get answers.

Dont count on us EVER getting the whole truth about this case....however, gaining additional insights into various aspects are a distinct possibility and this board will be as good a place as any to discover them.

I thought the glasses that were found, the "decoy ones", were determined to not be Steven's?  I recall reading it in one of the many Manson books.  Someone help me with this one?

there's no way the glasses belonged to Parents.  The police took them to different places to try to identify the prescription and manufacturer and looking for a patient to match, they wouldn't have done all that without first checking to see if it matched the victims.

I also believe that if Parent was killed or attacked somewhere else, there would've been a pretty clear trail of blood leading to his body in the car.. blood on the door handle.  All of his wounds came from the left side of his body, which is consistent with him sitting in the driver's seat being attacked.  Not shot or stabbed from behind or from the right, so I still haven't figured out why this part of the puzzle has to be any different than what's been told. 

I think Parent points more to the madness than any kind of organized hit.  Manson said kill every one there, so they killed him.  It would've made much more sense if this was a "hit", to ID him from the darkness, realize he wasn't a target and allow him to leave without ever knowing anything was going on.  Why waste bullets or risk discovery killing some innocent kid who happened to be in the way if you're on a mission.

Also if there was any kind of organization or planning involved, they wouldn't have stopped at some random house to hose the blood off, they would have had a major search for that missing knife.  These were not efficient killers.  The scene was crazy because they didn't have control over their victims, not so much because they were making a statement. If you were going to hire someone to kill, surely you could find a better group than this.  Possibly by the time they were out in the desert, everyone wearing knives and practicing things, they might have learned enough to be more efficient in future attacks, but the group that were responsible for all the murders were probably lucky they didn't manage to stab each other in the confusion.

Sweet Peaches - why didn't Jay eat? 

Saturating the body with food after doing some line can drag down a high.

Been there, done that - - Heck, that's just  one of the reasons I hate cocaine (as long as I don't see it, smell it, HAVE IT)  lol

At beach - have had time to interrogate husband without interruption - a couple of beers and he's less square and serious in ridding the world of criminal elements -

Right on about Steven Parent.  If it had been my boys and Sharon Tate was visible though a window in a bra and panties - they would have been glued there - I don't think that fairly normal behavior -

Goes to show you he might have been a normal red blooded kid and not at Garrettson's for a bj - I've never thought that - just doesn't jive somehow.

Husband says remember people will act like they always in dire situations.  You don't grow hero's attributes if you never practiced the tools for possible heroic behavior -

If one is a jerk he will still be a jerk even in an emergency - hence the guys who jumped into the lifeboats on the Titanic in front of the women and children.

Feminine experience (mine) says that there is a power in 'turning on old boyfriends' if the occasion presents itself.  Thinking it's okay as long as a line isn't crossed.

It also says that wearing a white Victorian nightgown can be a clue I want to be left alone even with a little MDA on a Friday night.

Garrettson didn't grow any heroic power handles that night - most likely not only was he drugged he was freaked and might have indeed not seen a thing because he heard just enough to make him scared - whiteout once - heard some noise and slunk back in an hid with the dogs -

Then quiet finally and the river of denial thinks "I didn't hear that, I imagined that'.

No matter how may scary movies we see - the mind is complex and compartmental and thank goodness it is - because we would start screaming and not stop if we considered the possibilities of what happened that night -

Most people are not trained to comprehend what terror is and react to such - that is why it is thought that those terrific guys on the 9-11 plane could think so quickly and so bravely - even when they were rolling that cart down the aisle to the cockpit the mind cannot comprehend that THIS IS IT -

It is this surreal denial that experts thinks can help a person in a catastrophic situation.  If one has prior tools to use the adrenaline being made to his own power, then the super ID can take over and act accordingly.

This is why special forces and intelligence gatherers can succeed.  They are aware of every type of possibility without being aware - the mind and body  become automatic.  Hence Frykowski almost making it -

Husband says id he hadn't been impaired he would have - another drug casualty - he was a life - long survivor and had pr oven it - he had also anticipated it - his friend Jerzy K. writes of this instinct in a novel - he says Voytek wondered why America seemed  it was  exempt from the have nit's he saw on Sunset just taking what they wanted from the haves -

Certainly it had happened in Eastern Europe recently and he had been witness to the pillage of a group of people then a country -

Husband wants to know one thing and I can't answer - 'WHY ARE WE SO SURE CHARLIE MANSON WAS NOT THERE EARILER TO HAVE BEEN A PART OF AT LEAST SOME OF THE CARNAGE'

He says it would be unusual for Charlie to have wanted to miss it all - even if he was afraid to get his hands dirty.

He wants to know if Charlie could have directed the killings just like he did orgies and 'guerrilla defense training' when he was playing Rommel in his dune buggy.

Important part of dealing with psychopaths - they want to see it - they want to direct it - they want to be a part of any power play they think they have set in motion.

And if not outed - they like to revisit the scene of such a situation.

[quote author=courtney link=topic=3880.msg31922#msg31922 date=1239495443]
Sweet Peaches - why didn't Jay eat? 

Saturating the body with food after doing some line can drag down a high.

Been there, done that - - Heck, that's just  one of the reasons I hate cocaine (as long as I don't see it, smell it, HAVE IT)  lol
[/quote]LOL  Well, in all fairness, maybe he'd already eaten?  wasn't hungry?  planned to go out later and eat with someone else?  Just more of the "we'll never know" things.  I have heard that cocaine makes you not have an appetite (or much of one anyway) so that's another possibility!

Mind if I jump in?

I've seen many scenarios put forward in which Parent is not the first one killed. I have trouble buying this because I see no payoff for each of the perpetrators lying about him being the first victim. I have yet to read any convincing reason for the perps to concoct this story.

I have a couple thoughts that relate to Parent's reported cry of "I promise I won't tell" or whatever he reportedly said and the broken fence. First, I think it's entirely possible Parent spotted the perpetrators attempting to hide as he approached his car or started to back up. Or he may have seen them before they attempted to conceal themselves. If he did, the sight of people sneaking around, attempting to conceal themselves is suspicious. He may have decided to get in his car and quickly speed by them, open the gate and get the hell out of there. My other thought is that there would have been every reason for Parent to be afraid of Watson as he approached the car. I have read that Parent had a juvenile record. Based on this, I would guess he had some street smarts. If a man at night approached my car with one hand behind his back, I would assume he's carrying a weapon, specifically a gun. I would guess Parent probably would have read the situation the same.

I can't understand why the perps would tell the same chronological story about Parent either - unless it was the first part of their lines in their grand rehearsal for whatever and whyever (therein lies a big mystery)

But Parent was shot 5 times - and it doesn't sound very smart on the part of the gunman to use 5 of  the bullets in a gun that has 9 chambers at the first of the 'killing session'  (and I think Tex Watson was a lot smarter than he looked...LOL)

Second reason - the first report of shots are in sync with Parent being killed first - but they are referred to as possible 3 backfires from a car - not the crisp retort of the shots heard later about 4 pm

That is what is so confusing.  The first solid evidence though is something Mike brought up that is evident in the autopsy report that has to do with the body temperator - look below and he explains it well -

I think you are right on about the dialogue/logic of him being caught though -

Do you think he might have been hiding inside the guest house and made a run for it when Katie turned the handle - from the diagram of car/guesthouse/etc. it sounds possible that he if he was in the guesthouse during the fray he ran out the back door - however I still have the hunch that he was somewhere around the house looking in the windows and saw something he hadn't bargained for - but that is just a stretch of the my imagination since there is no evidence but human psychology and the sound pattern to indicate that happened.

Again, you're assuming that the perps are all concocting a story to conceal the truth about when/how Parent was murdered. Why would they conceal the facts surrounding his murder then or now?

My point is that in the minds of the perps, Parent didn't see them until he approached them in his car. Those are their perceptions. Their perceptions may not be accurate, though. It's entirely possible, as I pointed out, that Parent had already seen or heard them and perhaps played it cool until he got into his car. Then he backed up very quickly with the intent of speeding by them to get to the gate quickly.

My impressions of Watson and the rest of the clan may be different than yours. What has always struck me more than general "craziness" is the remarkable stupidity almost all of them demonstrate. I think their idiocy, naivete and gullibility explains how they ended up on Cielo Drive more than any of the psychological portraits taken of them. Combine all this with the probability that they were hopped up on various mind-altering chemicals, and I'm not at all surprised that Watson spent five shots on Parent or made any number of other mistakes in the commission of the crime. We're attempting to apply rationality to a group of people who were anything but rational, logical creatures, particularly on the night in question.

I disagree with you about the Body temp. being hard evidence to when Parent was killed Mike. I do agree with you that there are doubts of when he died. 11 degree deference eh?  Either way, killed first or last, Parent and Voy were probably killed with in 15-30 minutes of each other. Could it be where Voy was laying outside on the lawn on his side compared to Parent inside his car. Which at my guess is probably about a 10 degree difference. Could be wrong due to the window being rolled down.  I wouldn't expect the temperatures to be exactly the same either. Wonder what temperature the others were? 

Again I wouldn't consider that hard evidence. I do have doubts  though.

I find it interesting that  the killers stories are similar. Yes there are some inconsistencies,as would be expected from heavy drug using hippies from the 60's. But their story is the same except little minor details that most of us can't help but to exagerate in our heads, making it seem much more important than it really is. I'm at fault of that myself. If they all are lying,  someone had to sit them all down after they were arrested and said "look, this is what you are going to say, it happened like this". But who and why would this happen?  Maybe To take advantage of the crime to scare the counter culture by the masses. Like I said in a previous post- DEATH BY BEATLES RECORD would sell newspapers around the world. Nixon was ruthless then. His people were doing fucked up shit. Hendrix, Morrison, Joplin, Cass all of them dead in mysterious ways. Just a thought or idea of what MIGHT???