Couldnt Manson have claimed ineffective counsel or something? Irving Kanarek is horrid and Thomas Noguchi testifies to the extent of Abigail Folger's wounds and the hanging of Sharon Tate. From the Dominion News, August 26, 1970:
Ineffective by whose standards? The courts' or Manson's? Given the nature of the client, and his ongoing courtroom theatrics, Manson was not an easy client. Was Kanarek a great attorney? No. Was he a good attorney? Only to those in whom he delivered Not Guilty verdicts. There is little doubt that Kanarek was no different than today's publicity seeking attorneys, and that he had visions of cashing in once he realized the enormity of the case. But even Kanarek was not prepared for what would go on during the trial. While an attorney must take direction from his client, he is also bound by the canons of ethics of the California State Bar Association, which requires an attorney to defend a client to his best ability. These two did not see eye to eye on anything, thus making the situation worse.
Kanarek was purposefully chosen by Manson because he was the most obstructionist, pig headed atty in California. BUG opposed his selection saying the trial would last 2 years with Kanarek. In the end Kanarek even got on CM's nerves and damaged his own case. Live and learn. CM was actually the lead atty. Manson learned of Kanarek by way of Leslie's atty Ronald Hughes who was a rookie truly out of his league. Yes the defense was awful but again, Charlie was in charge. He was calling the shots. The Family hung themselves with their own outrageously poor choices that were not just confined to Waverly and Cielo as if the murders weren't enough of a mistake by themselves
Dr. Watson--could Manson have fired Kanarek at any point in the trial and gotten himself a new attorney?
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35931#msg35931 date=1248472408] Dr. Watson--could Manson have fired Kanarek at any point in the trial and gotten himself a new attorney? [/quote] Leslie tried to fire her atty and was denied by Older. The logic behind Older's denial to let Leslie fire Hughes was that Older would not allow a change merely to muck up the process. As far a leting Manson fire Kanarek who Older despised....I don't know. You can't say Kanarek didn't fight like a dog for CM. Kanarek was CM'S way of displaying his contempt for society
[quote author=Dr Watson link=topic=4222.msg35963#msg35963 date=1248540819] [quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35931#msg35931 date=1248472408] Dr. Watson--could Manson have fired Kanarek at any point in the trial and gotten himself a new attorney? [/quote] Leslie tried to fire her atty and was denied by Older. The logic behind Older's denial to let Leslie fire Hughes was that Older would not allow a change merely to muck up the process. As far a leting Manson fire Kanarek who Older despised....I don't know. You can't say Kanarek didn't fight like a dog for CM. Kanarek was CM'S way of displaying his contempt for society [/quote] True, though sometimes it backfired on him too. Did Kanarek represent Manson at the Hinman/Shea? I do not recall...
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35976#msg35976 date=1248552754] [quote author=Dr Watson link=topic=4222.msg35963#msg35963 date=1248540819] [quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35931#msg35931 date=1248472408] Dr. Watson--could Manson have fired Kanarek at any point in the trial and gotten himself a new attorney? [/quote] Leslie tried to fire her atty and was denied by Older. The logic behind Older's denial to let Leslie fire Hughes was that Older would not allow a change merely to muck up the process. As far a leting Manson fire Kanarek who Older despised....I don't know. You can't say Kanarek didn't fight like a dog for CM. Kanarek was CM'S way of displaying his contempt for society [/quote] True, though sometimes it backfired on him too. Did Kanarek represent Manson at the Hinman/Shea? I do not recall... [/quote] Yea it backfired at times but it was funny at times too. Like when Older had Charlie banished to a holding cell. Kanarek would hear Charlie scream from the back to shut up. Kanarek would smile and go sit down. I can't remember who repped Charlie vs Hinman.
Stumbled across an article about it this morning---I think the judge was fighting the choice of Kanarek on the same old grounds, but I do not remember the outcome. And why get Charlie on Shorty and not get Tex? They had the same other counts against them? That always puzzled me. Unless they needed to throw Charlie in the Hinman/Shea mix to be the mastermind evil hippie guru again..but then that goes back to the old arguement that I think Fitzgerald brought up that was never settled so to speak. If they all were so programmed by Charlie and did what he said, then they should be let off on mental grounds. If they had minds of their own to do stuff, then how could Charlie be this master controller that made them do it... Not saying that anyone should have been let off of anything, but legally, at least to me, that puts things in a bind.
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35982#msg35982 date=1248555079] Stumbled across an article about it this morning---I think the judge was fighting the choice of Kanarek on the same old grounds, but I do not remember the outcome. And why get Charlie on Shorty and not get Tex? They had the same other counts against them? That always puzzled me............... [/quote] In "Manson in His Own Words" Charlie said there were even more involved in Shortie's murder than were charged and that he could reveal them and sink them if he so chose. Apparently there were more than Charlie, Clem, Bruce and Tex involved. Maybe a female or two? Dunno.
[quote author=Dr Watson link=topic=4222.msg36213#msg36213 date=1248931460] [quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg35982#msg35982 date=1248555079] Stumbled across an article about it this morning---I think the judge was fighting the choice of Kanarek on the same old grounds, but I do not remember the outcome. And why get Charlie on Shorty and not get Tex? They had the same other counts against them? That always puzzled me............... [/quote] In "Manson in His Own Words" Charlie said there were even more involved in Shortie's murder than were charged and that he could reveal them and sink them if he so chose. Apparently there were more than Charlie, Clem, Bruce and Tex involved. Maybe a female or two? Dunno. [/quote] ...and that is why none are talking to this day. I think a lot of them "got their hands dirty". It was the Manson way.
[quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg36216#msg36216 date=1248950692] Bill Vance popped up along the way in some accounts of the murder of Shorty. [/quote] Thanks. First I had heard on that I read an interview from Clem where he described how the cops had raided Spahn and destroyed everything even taking the kids away. The Family arrived back at a decimated ranch. The Family was blue hot furious at Shorty for ratting them out. You could tell from Clem's words that Shorty's life was doomed. Shorty may have had a naive side to his nature because he terribly misread Manson and the Family. I don't think he had a clue they were violent. He never suspected they were going to kill him. His last minutes were shear terror the equal of the ferocity of the TLB murders. Squeaky was in George Spahn's livingroom when Shorty told George he'd rid the ranch of Manson. Big mistake.
I know it was in the Golightly missive but I swear I saw it in one of Bruce Davis's parole hearings too...will have to check.
[quote author=Dr Watson link=topic=4222.msg36236#msg36236 date=1249014631] [quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg36216#msg36216 date=1248950692] Bill Vance popped up along the way in some accounts of the murder of Shorty. [/quote] Thanks. First I had heard on that I read an interview from Clem where he described how the cops had raided Spahn and destroyed everything even taking the kids away. The Family arrived back at a decimated ranch. The Family was blue hot furious at Shorty for ratting them out. You could tell from Clem's words that Shorty's life was doomed. Shorty may have had a naive side to his nature because he terribly misread Manson and the Family. I don't think he had a clue they were violent. He never suspected they were going to kill him. His last minutes were shear terror the equal of the ferocity of the TLB murders. Squeaky was in George Spahn's livingroom when Shorty told George he'd rid the ranch of Manson. Big mistake. [/quote] Doc, i'm not sure when you say Shorty didn't have a clue they were violent. We read that they were forever wandering round jabbing and wafting knives around, Charlie would have the sword throwing sessions, De Carlo, had an armoury in one of the buildings !!!!! With all those clues its not a great leap to perceive a potential for violence at least. Surely he chatted with the other ranch hands who lived on the ranch. To me he was a big guy who thought he could handle the diminutive Manson & a bunch of girls but like you say, he was badly mistaken.
[quote author=Billyboy link=topic=4222.msg36247#msg36247 date=1249032016] [quote author=Dr Watson link=topic=4222.msg36236#msg36236 date=1249014631] [quote author=catscradle77 link=topic=4222.msg36216#msg36216 date=1248950692] Bill Vance popped up along the way in some accounts of the murder of Shorty. [/quote] Thanks. First I had heard on that I read an interview from Clem where he described how the cops had raided Spahn and destroyed everything even taking the kids away. The Family arrived back at a decimated ranch. The Family was blue hot furious at Shorty for ratting them out. You could tell from Clem's words that Shorty's life was doomed. Shorty may have had a naive side to his nature because he terribly misread Manson and the Family. I don't think he had a clue they were violent. He never suspected they were going to kill him. His last minutes were shear terror the equal of the ferocity of the TLB murders. Squeaky was in George Spahn's livingroom when Shorty told George he'd rid the ranch of Manson. Big mistake. [/quote] To me he was a big guy who thought he could handle the diminutive Manson & a bunch of girls but like you say, he was badly mistaken. [/quote] Yea I think you nailed it there. This is something I search for when I read TLB. Why Shorty didn't realize that no matter how big you are that knives and guns and monkey wrenches tend to neutralize this seemingly insurmountable advantage of size. Shorty was suckered in so easily too. The Lilliputians beat and tore him to shreds. I had mentionedthis last week but Ruby Pearl was terribly hurt by his murder. She confronted Manson at a prison visit DEMANDING to know the who and why of Shortie's murder. Manson flippantly told her to go ask the Black Panthers but as faras I can tell the terrible Black Panthers had about as much involvement in TLB as the Munchkins did.
