As I attempt to read the many posts on the this website (and others) questions come up. I am very appreciative of the knowledge base and help that is offered by the readers and members of this forum. Thank all of you again for your insightful comments. My questions are the following: in SA's bio. on the Manson Family today (what's left of the website) there is a mention (1993, May) where she had undisclosed surgery and later a mention about problems with her arm. Apparently work duties were changed because of this. Does anyone have knowledge what the surgery was about and is there any connection with this arm problem and her role as a killer (Hinaman allegedly took the gun off of her, using a large towel to tie up Voytek F. that he escaped from, allegedly losing her knife in the process, etc.). Based on pictures alone IMHO, SA did not look physically imposing, seemed "soft", out of shape, reportedly malnourished, recurrent VD, and her hands have an odd or unusual appearance. I waffle from sympathy (she is an emotionally disturbed or mentally ill patsy) to maybe she has psychopathic traits and is clearly in the know about her actions (IQ 117......which is high average). Also, when the discarded clothes from the night of murder at the Tate resident were found, were any forensic evaluations conducted on the items, eg. blood sampling, hair (supposedly Voytek F. pulled out clumps of SA's hair) that support the testimonies (SA, TW, LK, PK). Joe
From memory of parole transcripts on that removed site Mansons Today her surgery was for an ovarian cyst. I'd suspect her arm problem was RSI or occupational overuse as she did data entry in the prison in a clerk job for a long time. After which she did studies.
PS - a respectable iq doesn't exclude you from being so mentally unwell as not to know the shit you're standing in. Her letters sent from prison early show she was out to lunch and delusional early on, and her iq only climbed back up gradually as her brain recovered from the drugs etc. She has conducted many "go straight" lectures explaining to at risk youth that she like them did not see where things were headed and tha people need to not follow aimlessly like amoeba or trust in the wrong people - but to live consciously with life plan.
It's referred to in the appeal thread (bulk to read). Blood only on one clothing item - type b which matched 3 victims. Other clothing was stained but they could not confirm if blood. The clothing with a hair looking like Susans' on it was not the clothing with blood.
I have not seen any photos. I tried looking in this website but my search was not real thorough. Although, if those items of clothing are still in storage at the LA Police dept. I would think DNA testing could still be done and with advanced techniques, skin cells, sweat, hair, etc. re-review the data.
Her letters sent from prison early show she was out to lunch and delusional early on, and her iq only climbed back up gradually as her brain recovered from the drugs etc. TooLate Where would I look to see the content of these letters? Are they available here on this website or some other place? Thank you Joe
Where would I look to see the content of these letters? Are they available here on this website or some other place? Thank you [/quote] There were 3 or 4 letters intercepted. I've only seen one on the net. Here is the text below - a scanned copy may be on one of the Manson websites, can't remember where. For me (as someone who testifies in Court to peoples mental health) this indicates she was nuts. I could break it down but would lose you in jargon. Delusional is the nutshell version, which concurs with the (suppressed) opinion offered to the Court by Dr Hochmann. Her later letters show a massive wellness and personal growth arc in character. I think it is ordinary for vulnerable youth to follow bad leaders, but extraordinary to come so far. A 1969 letter to Ronnie Howard from Sadie Mae Glutz Hello I can see your side of this clearly. Nor am i mad at you. I am hurt in a way i only understand. I blame nobody but myself for ever saying anything to anybody about it. My attorney (sic) is going to go on insanity. Yes, I wanted the world to know “M”. It sure looks like they do now. There was a so called motive behind all this. It was to install fear into the pigs and to bring on judgment day which is here now for all. In the first place there are no strangers to me or “M”. In the word kill the only thing that dies is the ego. All ego must die anyway, it is written. Yes it could have been your house it could have been my fathers house also. In killing someone physically (sic) you are only releasing the soul. Life has no boundaries and death is only an illusion. If you can believe in the second coming of Christ (sic) “M” is he who has come to save. Insanity is reality and not caring. When you truly love you do not care about anyone or anything you just love. “M” does not care, I know this to be the truth. Maybe this will help you to understand. I am not going to fight this. I will let my attorney do that. I am going to save my soul, the body my soul is housed in can be destroyed for all I care. To live forever is all I want, and I really don’t care about that. I did not admit to being in the 2nd house, because I was not in the second house. I went before the grand jury because my attorney said your testimony was enough to convict me and all the others. He also said it was my only chance to save myself. Then I was out to save myself. I have gone through some changes since then. I am ceasing to be inside rather than seeming to be. I have been going through changes about feeling guilty about testifying and all that has happened. For me to say I am sorry is not enough for me. I have been dying a little more everyday. Giving up my useless (sic) thoughts. I know now it has all been perfect. Yes we are beyond petty (sic) caring. Love is also beyond limits. These people died not out of hate or anything ugly. I am not going to defend our beliefs. I am just telling you the way it is. I am also content here. My attorney gives me money. He just deposited (sic) $ 20 to my account. As I write to you I feel more at ease inside. When I first heard you were the informer I wanted to slit your throat. I snapped that I was the real informer and it was my throat I wanted to cut. Well that’s over with now as I let the past die away from my mind. You know it will turn out ok in the end anyway. “M” or no “M”, Sadie or no Sadie. Love will still run forever. I am giving up me to become that love a little more every day. Changes, Changes, Only Love if forever Changing. Cease to exist just come and say you love me. As I say I love you or should say I love Me (my love) in you. Write me. I hope now you understand a little more. If not ask. Sadie Fast forward to the real Susan and we get someone who is more balanced and adjusted than most, here are letters in response to a teen who write her saying she just loves CM, and to a kid wanting to quit school. 1999 - see second letter on page as Susan replies to a kid (someone pretending to be one)revealing that she did not like school http://boingboing.net/2010/03/10/little-billys-letter.html In June 1998, Atkins received the following handwritten letter in prison mail: "My name is Ashley. I have been writing to Manson. And he has been writing to me. I think I love him. There is some power he has over me. You should understand. You lived with him. I don't know why, but I want to do whatever he says to do, and he tells me to do some weird things. But I have this overwhelming love for him. Is he really God? Please tell me what to do." Atkins responded quickly. "Charles Manson is a mean, bitter, evil, little man rightly behind bars. He is not a kind or nice man. He is a liar and a thief," she wrote Ashley. "I have seen him terrorize, brutalize, rape, beat and threaten young teenage boys and girls." Atkins urged Ashley to find idols "who have overcome incredible obstacles." Manson, she insisted, only wrecks lives. Atkins then supplied a list of her own heroes: actor Christopher Reeve; wheelchair-bound British physicist Stephen Hawking; and ex-football star Reggie White, an outspoken Baptist preacher. The impact of Atkins' letter is unknown—Ashley's family moved from their modest apartment about five minutes from Disneyland and could not be located. NOT SURPRISING GIVEN FOLLOWERS TENDENCY TO STALK CONTACTS! And lastly Two years ago defineFREEDOM.com received a letter from convicted murderer and Charles Manson follower, she explained what freedom meant after a lifetime of not having it; “I would like to share with you that unfortunately for me, when I was your age, I had no consciousness with regard to the importance of freedom for American citizens, or individuals. It was an abstract concept to me then, and one which I didn't give much thought to. The longer I am incarcerated, now 38 years, soon to begin my 39th year of consecutive incarceration, I can tell you that the longer I'm incarcerated and the longer I witness younger and younger women coming to prison because they make irresponsible and uncaring decisions in their lives, the more I appreciate the idea, concept and reality of freedom. Its difficult for people to conceive of something that they have, and its authentic value until they don't have it anymore. Today I grieve and fully regret the choices I made that led to my incarceration. I make no excuses today, I'm responsible for my actions in the past, and for nearly 4 decades I've learned and been learning how to make healthy choices that keep me healthy today. Freedom is choice, in thoughts, words and deeds, and the responsibility to live with the consequences of those choices, which can include and encompass the entire spectrum of human emotions and experiences. Freedom is far more than physical liberty of moment. Every decision, each human being makes begins first with the freedom to choose to act, or not act, based upon the person to make a decision. Sincerely, Susan”
Eureka - answers a question i had re why Susan spilled the beans. So devoutly did she believe in Manson she was in fact trying to share the good news with cellmates. Though apparently under orders to keep her mouth shut, so she initially felt angry with Ronnie for telling the cops, she has then rationalised it as a good thing because now the world can know Manson asis apparently part of the greater scheme in the families mind anyway. No wonder M called her a "dumb F".
