Thought I'd share this Jem --------------------------------------------------------- Dear xxxx Freedom of Information Request Reference No: xxxxxxxxx I write in connection with your request for information dated 14 July 2007 which was received by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) on 14/07/2007. I note you seek access to the following information: I am writing to request information to which I believe I am entitled to under section 7(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998. A certain Joel Pugh was found dead in a London hotel room on the 1st or 2nd December 1969. His throat and wrists had apparently been cut and words and symbols had been drawn on a mirror in the room in his own blood. I believe the hotel was called the Talgarth and that it was located in or near Hammersmith. I would like to request such information about the coroner’s findings, police investigation and prosecution of this case as may be available, including case notes and court proceedings. I am particularly interested in why this death was ruled to be suicide. I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 40 days. I would be grateful if you could confirm by email that you have received this request. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future. Following receipt of your request searches were conducted within the MPS to locate information relevant to your request. EXTENT OF SEARCHES TO LOCATE INFORMATION To locate the information relevant to your request searches were conducted at Crown Prosecution website, British Library, Newspaper archives. The searches failed to locate any information relevant to your request. DECISION I have today decided that access cannot be provided to the information you have requested as it is not held by the MPS. COMPLAINT RIGHTS Your attention is drawn to the attached sheet which details your right of complaint. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in the MPS. Should you have any further inquiries concerning this matter, please write or contact xxx xxxx at the above address quoting the reference number above. Yours sincerely xxxx xxxxxxx Policy and Support Officer
Weird-thanks Jem. I searched all the archives I have access to, and nothing either. Still trying to figure if he and Sandy were married.
I wrote back explaining I found it hard to believe there could be no record of this. This is what I got back. Jem ============================= From: xxxx xxxx Policy Support Team Dear xxx, Thank you for your message. I am afraid there is no record of a Police Investigation of this case. As it is so long ago, perhaps National Archive in the British Library may have the information you are seeking. Kind Regards, xxxx xxxx ======================== Unfortunately I'm a long way from London and I don't think they do a distance lookup service. And certainly it would cost ...
Well great effort. And if you don't mind, I may contact them to see how much it would be and how long it is. Maybe they will be helpful.
www.atwa.info is probably not the most reliable of sites but there it says: "After Joel Pugh's death his parents journeyed to London to satisfy themselves with the official verdict of suicide. After checking all the medical records (Pugh's father was a doctor at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota) and the files at Scotland Yard they were satisfied that the death was, indeed, a suicide." Of course there must have been (maybe are still) Metropolitan Police files. And it does seem very possible that Pugh was a schizophrenic who killed himself (the concealed writing and the 'Jack and Jill' in open source are typical of schizophrenic paranoia) - I don't particulalrly go for conspiracy theories, and I don't think there is anything at all except the putative relationshiop with Sandra Collins/Good to link him with the Manson people. Please do contact the British Archive if you have the time - I would imagine most of the investigating officers would most likely still be alive. Jem
Ok, like others you think Bruce did it, perhaps along with offing the brother of Col Scott and carrying out the Zodiac murders too ... But can you bring any evidence to bear? I get the impression that most people would like Bruce to have done it, but I have not been able to uncover the slighest evidence to support the theory. And if it was Bruce, what motive could he possibly have had? There is doubt that Pugh was married to Sandra Good/Collins, and no indication that he ever had contact with Manson or any of those near him. The evidence for his schizophrenia and suicide would seem more compelling. Jem
Oh yes, I should mention that Scotland Yard records indicate that Davis left London for New York on 25th April 1969 (using US passport 612 2568 - his given address in the UK was Dormer Cottage, Felbridge, Surrey, at that time owned by Scientologists). There is no record in UK immigration of his having returned to the UK - Pugh. however did remain behind. Jem
That is the one document that I kept bringing up on another site-that it shows him leaving. Someone kept saying he went back, and I asked to see records of that. None were provided.
First of all, settle down. Now here's where it gets tricky. Scotland Yard does have Davis leaving at that time. They also have Davis returning to England just before Pugh's death. Records? They don't have them! Believe it or not, beaurocracies do make mistakes. Bugliosi, Sanders and (I think) Gorightly have all been told by members of the Yard that Davis was indeed in England when Pugh was killed.
Yes, I'm settled down. Sorry if I was over-excited before. You're right, it was believed that Davis revisited the UK but it has not been born out by IK immigration records (Scotland Yard checked as he was in the frame). But then again UK immigration had/has more holes than a colander and he could easily have used another name. I think the problem with the investigation was a) he was a lousy hippy, who lived alone and acted weird; b) the woulnds were not inconsistent with suicide; c) the body was blocking the door from the inside. Added to that Joel's father was a medical doctor and he accepted the verdict - something many parents might have questioned. I put the writing and weird stuff down to Schzophrenia (have you seen the movie about mathematician John Forbes Nash, "A Beautiful Mind" - with Russel Crowe?). And his instability would also explain the lack of a suicide note. Going back to my original questions (and I'm asking, not asserting anything), I still would like to know 1) what motive Davis would have in killing Pugh? Remember if he did he went all the way to London to do it 2) Is there any evidence that Pugh had any connection at all with the family other than knowing Sandra? 3) Is there any evidence that he was in fcat married to Sandra. I accept that she may have known him, may have used his name, but married? (Maybe someone in the US can doi a look up - I'm in the UK. So, ecnivb, I'm on your side in that I'm trying to find these things out, as we all are, and I'm sorry if I rattled your cage. Let's see if you, cats or anyone else can help me answer these questions. Jem
Okay, nothing against Adam Gorightly, but he really rehashed everything everyone else had done. Sanders, nothing against him as well, but he got some stuff wrong too. If Bugliosi has the documents, well, he doesn't show proof or anything along that line. If it is a mistake and they lost the paperwork, where is the name cited of the person who remembers the paperwork or did the paperwork? Have searched records for marriage, and so far nothing. The truth in this situation may be a mixture, but if they tracked Bruce all along, then I would imagine there would be a name of someone who saw the records of him going back around the time of Pugh. Also, then there would be records of him coming back from that trip as well. They say he went--but when did he return? No one says....weird.
They say he went--but when did he return? No one says....weird. Maybe Mark Turner might know soemthing? I'm not one to diss Mark and at http://www.charliemanson.com/timeline-1969.htm he does have Bruce leaving for the UK in Nov 1969 and returning in Dec. Of course Mark could just be repeating hearsay. Jem
There was also something in Sanders book saying that Davis took a bunch of coins to England with him to sell. This is where Sanders's book becomes really frustrating. He says that "those with intamate knowledge of the Tate - LaBianca case will find an interesting connection if indeed Davis took the coins to England." Sanders had mentioned that Leno collected coins earlier in the book, but then he leaves you hanging there! I don't know if he's insinuating that Leno gave the coins to the Family, or that they had ripped the LaBiancas off. Anybody got any ideas on this?
Doesn't everybody remember a letter addressed to Sandy that she left in her motel room in Independence when she de-camped for LA. It was from a former Family member stating that "they" did not want to have happen to them that happened to Joel.
