Does anyone else think that Voytek Frykowski has been very unfairly judged out of the four friends who died at Cielo? I've been reading about him and taken into account quotes from genuine friends, and I feel this man has had his name dragged through the mud over the past 40 years. He's seen in a worse light, in some cases, than Manson. It's all too easy to point the finger at him and say 'He was screwing his woman for her money', 'He was a coward for trying to escape', 'He was a drug addict', 'Talentless' etc. Personally, I don't think Voy was using Gib. After two years, it's hard to keep up that facade. I think their relationship was a push pull situation where both of them were as bad as each other in terms of vices. I refuse to believe she sat and watched him get high, begging him to stop while he just sniggered and flipped her the bird. At the end of the day, the only two people with the right to judge that relationship are no longer here I've heard mumblings that Voy was a coward for running out of the house, leaving his girlfriend, Sharon and Jay to fend for themselves, but how about looking at it in a totally different light? He's already been stabbed and shot, before he took off. Could it be that he did that to give the others a chance to escape. He probably knew Watson would come after him with the gun to finish him off I think he deserves to be given a chance. Not written off as some sponger drug addict. It's just too easy to jump to that conclusion when there are people out there like Roman and others who said he was a good guy, not that talented, but not that bad either.
I don't know anywhere nearly as much about AF and VF as you seem to know, but: He doesn't seem to have been "using" AF per se, but instead merely seemed to be her companion and lover. We don't hear of him sponging off her, exactly, and he seems to have been earning his own money-- albeit illegally, as a drug dealer-- while he was with her. But he was also shooting to become involved in the movie or entertainment industry, was doing some writing, and so forth. I think he was pretty much his own man, therefore. Now, it was Gibby's choice to stay with him... and I have read on this site that she might have been thinking of giving him up... in which case I think he would have merely shuffled off to a different future. However, the Family intervened in the natural progression of what may have been a decaying relationship, and so we'll never know what might have become of the couple otherwise. My guess is that they would ultimately have broken up and the two would have gone on to their own ends, apart from one another, had they not been slain. I think he was trying to make it on his own. If his woman helped him out a bit, so what? We don't read that he was driving around in a brand-new Maserati GT or wearing diamonds that she bought for him. Taken from another perspective, it would also be possible to say that SHE was using HIM to score dope, et cetera. But I think this would likewise be a false and shallow characterization. There's a lot of give and take in relationships. If Voy was the wealthy one, and Gibby were the struggling immigrant, then we'd be hearing that she was using him for money, and so forth. Ultimately, I think they were a pair of lovers and that they shared many things in life together. I also think it's incorrect to characterize the man as a "coward" for "running out of the house" and leaving others behind to suffer their ghastly fate. Matter of fact, the man seems to have been shot and stabbed right after Sebring and when he staggered-- not ran, but staggered-- out the front door, he merely collapsed into the bushes-- already gravely injured, and probably already dying. He may have been only barely conscious of what he was doing at that point. I am quite certain also that he was in a state of neurological shock. Being shot and stabbed will do that to most anybody whose name ain't Superman. Voy seems to have stayed there, probably barely hanging onto his life, until Gibby ran out the door by the pool with Krenwinkel in hot pursuit. At that point he seems to have rallied somewhat, and it's very possible that he may have wished to go to aid her except that Tex came out the front door right then and assaulted him with vicious, final fury. The pair died quite close together and I will always believe that Voy would have wanted to rescue her... but simply couldn't. So I will not write him off as a sponge or a coward, since I don't see it and have never really heard it from anybody who knew the man. Nor would I characterize him as a drug addict since the drugs he seems to have preferred were not at all "addictive" or even dependency-forming. They might not have been good things for him to be playing with, but his case was much different than that of an opiate addict or even a hard-core alkie. The word "addict" is kicked around too much these days, and I notice that it's almost never used in the clinical sense by those who wish to smear others with that particular characterization. Anybody who sees the guy as being "worse than Manson" needs to take another long, hard look at Charlie. Voy didn't prescribe murder, didn't have a harem of brainwashed followers and flunky dudes like Watson, and didn't hate humankind despite what he had been through during WW2. He might not have been Clean Gene the Moral Machine, but he wasn't some scrub, murderous scumbag like Charles Manson. --R
You pretty much summed up a lot of things about him that I would have, given the time and patience and ability to string that many sentences together. You seem to know as much as I do about them. I applaud all your points. To be fair, Voytek can't have known how wealthy Gib was when they first hooked up because according to some, when she moved to NYC, she lived in a one bedroomed apartment, well below her means. Did she introduce herself by saying "Folger, coffee heiress, sitting on millions, I am" Also, about him fleeing. I think I'll stick with my theory that he stumbled out to give the others a chance to escape. Watson and Atkins were already pouncing on him.
http://truthontatelabianca.com/index.php?topic=1543.0 The book Chronicle of Death, which appears to be the first book out on the subject, gives a different perspective in parts to the personality of Voytek. To me, he seemed like a young man, who had been thru some tough times, and went from one extreme to another, living life to its fullest, because he had seen and known that life could and possibly would, be gone in a blink of an eye. His film/writing career, as it were, seemed to be at a stall. Perhaps the whole drug thing was a way to make money, to kill the appearances of being Minnie the Moocher... Abigail, by all accounts, was not a dumb woman. There was something in him that she loved, but at the same time hated. Would they have worked things out? We wil never know.
Perhaps the worst thing the pair of them did was come to California... back in NY, by the sounds of it, they only had each other. According to Voy's mother, he wanted to marry Gibby, but wouldn't because she was rich. That tells me that he felt inferior because he couldn't financially look after her the way a man of his generation was supposed to look after his woman.
I agree that he was not only using her, but it is possible he was staying in the relationship until another girl came along who would support him the way Gibby did. In an article on CharlieManson.com, one friend alleges that Voytek had become interested in another girl, but that Gibby used drugs/money to pull him back in. To me, it seems plausible. For one thing, if Gibby desperately loved him and wanted to keep him, I'm sure she'd go to any measure to ensure he stays with her. For another, it's not like Voytek was apprehensive about ending relationships. The guy had two prior divorces, so if things were bad with Gibby I can't imagine why he'd put up with it. While I think he liked Gibby for more than her wealth, I also think it was a hook. In the article I mentioned (I'd post it here, but every time I try to paste a link it says "Do Not Lift Copyrighted Material!") it says Voytek would have married her if she had consented. Do you think Gibby knew how her family would react to a man like Voytek and kept their relationship quiet on purpose? I know she wasn't close to her father, but he acted like he had no idea Voytek existed.
I can't imagine she was close to her father or her stepmother (who was only 7/8 years older than her) nor do I think Voy ever met Big Daddy Folger.
[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4648.msg42603#msg42603 date=1259237940] I've heard mumblings that Voy was a coward for running out of the house, leaving his girlfriend, Sharon and Jay to fend for themselves, but how about looking at it in a totally different light? He's already been stabbed and shot, before he took off. Could it be that he did that to give the others a chance to escape. He probably knew Watson would come after him with the gun to finish him off [/quote] I don't think that he was a coward for running after he had been stabbed and shot. Once something like that happens I would imagine instincts take over and you don't have a whole lot of choice in where you legs try to take you.
You're right and over various forums there isn't a mention of the fact that Gibby too fled the house, this was after she was stabbed. Does that make her selfish, leaving Sharon in there? My theory is that Voytek fled to take the heat off the others and Gibby fled to escape to the guest house. BTW Where does the name Gibby originate from? Is it short for Abigail in America. Because it isn't over here.
[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4648.msg42624#msg42624 date=1259275101] BTW Where does the name Gibby originate from? Is it short for Abigail in America. Because it isn't over here. [/quote] That's a good question. Gibby is not short for Abigail in America (in fact, I've searched several baby name books/websites and it's not even recognized as a name) For Gibby Folger, it seems to have started when she was little. I read a headline online (the article/photo was not available) that was written when Gibby was in first grade and she is listed as Gibby, not Abigail. Same thing goes in the article (available on this message board) where it mentions her bedroom catching on fire when she was 17--instead of Abigail, she is called Gib.
It will be something else Peter Folger has locked away, filed under "Origins of Gibby's name - not for public use" The less I know, the more I'm interested.
I agree with Roberteaux. I hardly would call Voytek a coward for going outside. Actually, I find that assumption ridiculous. Who knows what any one of them was thinking or feeling other than sheer terror and pain.
Believe me, I've heard all kinds of accusations about this man in his final hours. A man who fought so hard against 51 stab wounds, gunshot wounds and head injuries.
I cant understand how anyone can judge a person that runs when being attacked, we all have instincts that tell us when it is time to stand and fight or it is time to turn and run. I think Voytek was a good man that had it in him to think if I run maybe they will chase me and others will escape. I cant imagine being woken up with a long barrel gun stuck in my face, half asleep with 3 maybe "4" stranger's standing over me with their eyes black and cold, and having to think on my feet within minutes of such terror setting in and my mind racing with the first shot fired. There are only the "5" victims in the Tate case that could answer that question god rest their souls. It must have been a horrible knowing you are about to die. They had the world by the tail and having it end so violently watching your friends die in front of you and knowing there is nothing you could do to help save them. Helplessness is a feeling I hope none of you out there ever have to experience. Vince
Interesting thread. As far as I'm able to imagine being in a scene like the one that unfolded at Cielo Drive (and I'm sure that the worst thing I can thing of wasn't half of what really went on), I'm sure we'd all like to believe that, in the same situation, we would be unfailingly brave and noble. The truth, I think, is that once the knives, the gun and the rope came out, it was pretty much every man for himself. The singular exception to this appears to be Sharon, whose maternal instinct to protect her child kicked in full-force. Everyone else, I suspect, was in full self-preservation mode, regardless of the feelings they may or may not have had toward any of the others who were also being attacked. I know that I would fight anyone trying to hurt my sons (who, at 6'5" and 6'6", respectively, would be quite capable of fighting their own battles) even today, and that my husband, much as I love him, would pretty much be on his own. And, as was pointed out earlier, I hardly think it cowardice for Voytek to end up with 51 stab wounds, two gunshots and 13 blunt-object injuries to his head.
I believe pure adrenaline took over (how else to explain where got the energy to keep moving in light of his already horrible wounds) - and that he might have been thinking (if he were even able to think clearly) that if he got outside maybe someone would hear him scream and come to their rescue. I know my instinct - or rather I think my instinct - would be to run like crazy. What else was he going to do inside that house? He didn't have a gun or anything to fight back with. Talk about being unfairly maligned! Good lord, I'm flummoxed why he'd be criticized by anyone about his actions that night. Bottom line: There was zilch he could have done inside that house to save Sharon.
Endoracat, the unanswered questions are like that itch you just can't reach, aren't they? Survival is one of our strongest instincts. If you don't have a chance in standing your ground, discretion becomes the better part of valor. In other words, RUN! Which is likely what was going through Frykowski's mind. He could stand his ground and die, or he could take a chance at trying to get away, to raise an alarm. When we first found the evidence report listing Sebring's blood on the gate actuation button at Cielo, Cats and I talked for a long, long time about how it might have found its way there. We discussed the possibility he might have somehow escaped and ran that far, but after looking at it for a bit longer, it just didn't make much sense. If (<--- please see that word, everyone) Sebring did manage to get away from his attackers, I think it more probable he would have scampered right across the front lawn, vaulted the fence and tried to head down the hill toward the twin house. There was some brush in that area that would have offered some concealment and there certainly wasn't a gate he was going to have to wait to open. If someone is chasing you with a weapon and trying to kill you, are you going to run down a paved drive with a closed gate at the end, or are you going to try to get into an area where you might be able to find some cover and let you hide a bit?
Could Sebring's blood on the gate button have been left there by one of the killers who got his blood on them? Or is that a stupid question?
When we do not know exactly what happened at that crime scene, I do not see there can ever be any stupid questions. However, if we accept the Atkins version, Watson was the only one who ever attacked Sebring. Which makes it seem pretty natural, since Atkins also says Watson was the one who opened the gate when they left. The problem comes in when you look at Atkins' chronology. I've posted this elsewhere, but it's easier to re-type than to go hunt it down. 1. Watson shot Sebring. 2. Watson then bashed Frykowski over the head with the revolver. 3. Watson then started stabbing Frykowski. 4. Watson then ran over to where Sebring lay and stabbed him. This is the last time Sebring is mentioned. 5. Watson then stabbed Folger. 6. Watson then ran outside to silence Frykowski. 7. Watson then ran back inside and stabbed Tate. 8. The killers left the house and saw Folger was still upright, so Watson stabbed her. 9. Watson then kicked Frykowski in the head, before the killer left. How did Sebring's blood end up on that button, when after stabbing Sebring, Watson had stabbed Folger, then Frykowski, then Tate and then Folger again? This raises the question as to whether or not Manson and unknown other individuals might have visited the scene later. I don't see that as happening. Manson was a con and he knew what a tremendous risk it would have been to return to the scene of a noisy murder. But if he had returned, how smart would it have been to be possibly caught out walking away from that slaughter with blood on your hands? I've always wondered why the murderers didn't just jump into the pool for a quick rinse of the blood, before walking away. Why risk being seen walking down to the car with blood on their clothing and bodies? Why risk getting blood on the car?
I need to process all this information more, but what if - weirdly, I admit - Watson reached down somehow and touched Sebring for any reason - to see if he was alive, even - and then left the house and it just was forgotten or never mentioned? I just don't believe for a second that Manson went to that crime scene. No way. I don't care what he has claimed in the past - I think it was said to be provocative and nothing else. I know people disagree vehemently and believe he did go back, but I'm with you Mike - he knew full well how perilous it would be to go to Cielo after the murders.
