Granado tesities about the blood at Cielo Drive

From what I have always understood Susan ran out to Linda to ask for a knife. I just read Susan Atikins Child of God book and the feeling I have gotten is she was trying to disconnect herself from the fact that she actually walked out the door and asked for knife instead of needing to defend herself against Voytek!

Looked over the Tate Autopsy Report. The stab wounds seem to fit in with the reports of Atkins and Watson. The wounds to the front of the body were caused by Watson with Atkins holding Tate. The wounds to the back area would have been caused by Watson as he made his speed- induced rounds on stabbing after everyone was dead or dying.

I believe when Atkins went back into the house she noticed that Sharon Tate looked bloodier than before.

What I did find that was interesting were the abrasions on her face. She did have a superficial abrasion on the neck from the rope and the coroner notes also abrasions on the neck probably caused from fingernails. She was frantically trying to get that rope off. Damn it! The abrasions which I can't account for are on the left side of her face. The coroner notes that the upper one is 2 1/2 inches long and horizontal. The lower one is 1 1/2 inches long and also horizontal.

The coroner also notes that the stab wounds pierced no major organs and Sharon Tate literally bled to death. The gurgling noises heard by Atkins would have been from the blood filing up areas of the body. Horrific death and it would have taken awhile for her to die.

It seems like Watson does mention that he slashed Sharon's face before stabbing her. I'll have to check that out. It does seem the coroner would have been able to ascertain if the abrasion was caused by a knife but no mention of a knife causing that wound.

Three Buck folding knives plus one bayonet?

Thanks for posting the Kasabian testimony. Very informative.

My understanding of the weapons involved would be 3 Buck knives (1 with tape around handle), 1 Bayonet and the revolver.

Interesting that Kasabian testifies that Krenwinkel came out and got that tape-handled knife before the screaming started. Kasabian is in the area of Parent's car as a lookout. The screaming that Kasabian heard would have been the killing of Sebring. Kasabian heads toward the house and witnesses Frykowski stumbling out the door followed by Watson and Atkins. Frykowski falls into bushes to the right of doorway. Frykowski gets up and is pummeled by Watson with the butt of the revolver and repeatedly stabbed. Kasabian also testifies that she saw Krenwinkel chasing Folger at which point she heads to where Watson has parked the car.

The killing of Sebring would have caused a panic as both Folger and Frykowski break free and make a run for it.

Obvious omissions in Kasabian's Testimony.

1) At what point did Atkins get the other knife from Kasabian?

2) As mentioned, How did Parent's wrist wound occur?

3) The timing seems to be off. Kasabian hears the screams of Sebring and others. Heads toward the house which was about a hundred feet. Witnesses Frykowski stumbling out the door. How long would it take Kasabian to walk or possibly run hurriedly a hundred feet? While Kasabian is heading toward the house Sebring is killed, Frykowski is in that scuffle with Atkins and she loses her knife, Folger breaks free and heads out the bedroom door, Frykowski is shot by Watson. Also Folger would have received wounds as she was bleeding as she is running out the bedroom door. Who inflicted these initial wounds on Folger? Possibly Krenwinkel?

Anyway the knives do seem to add up. Atkins loses 1. Krenwinkel has 1(tape-handled)from Kasabian. Atkins gets last 1 from Kasabian at some point. Watson has bayonet which was probably on his possession during ride to Tate house.

Bit strange. Ok. Kasabian has all 3 knives on the drive to Cielo wrapped in her skirt. Atkins takes one into the house. Krenwinkel does not. Kasabian has 2 knives as she's performing lookout duties by Parent's car. Why does Krenwinkel approach the house unarmed esp. after just witnessing a murder? That of Parent.

The most obvious reason I could come up with on Krenwinkel being unarmed is that she felt she wouldn't need a knife. Maybe murder wasn't the original intention on being there. Krenwinkel does go down before the murder of Sebring to get one from Kasabian but going into that house initially unarmed is very strange. Kasabian didn't think murder was going to occur and also now Krenwinkel.

Ok. Sebring isn't killed until he lunges for the gun. When he makes a move on Watson he is shot. Sort of a distorted self defense. That's when all hell breaks loose. .

This theory of murder not being the original intention also supports the idea that Parent wasn't the 1st to die. I can't imagine Krenwinkel not getting a knife after witnessing Parent's shooting. Just self preservation would have kicked in and she would have made damn sure that she was armed!

Any other ideas on why Krenwinkel would go into that house unarmed?

Thanks for posting the Kasabian testimony. Very informative.

I don't think it was a social call either. I do think they were there for a reason just not murder.

How they gained entry to the house is another mystery. Tex sends Linda around the house to look for a way in. The soon to be nursery is on the northeast corner of the house with 2 windows wide open. The open windows would have been very obvious as they are right on a corner and closest to the entrance gate. I guess I could see how they could miss it but Linda would have walked right by the open windows as she went to the back of the house. Plus there would have been a strong fresh paint smell coming from that room. I don't see how those open windows could have been missed. Another thing that puzzles me lol is if the stereo was on. We have no reports from our killers if the stereo was on. The stereo being on would help explain why the gunshots that killed Parent weren't heard. Or maybe heard and ignored.

On the creepy crawl missions I'm not sure if they were armed or not. This is from Atkins Grand Jury Testimony:

Q How did you do that? What did you do?

A Well, we went out on garbage runs and we went and panhandled and one time one girl and I put on dark clothes and took it upon ourselves to do this- Charlie had no knowledge of this- we went out and creepy-crawled.

I wonder who that other girl was? Perhaps Linda Kasabian as Kasabian and Atkins seemed to have spent alot of time together prior to Tate/LaBianca.

Another thing that is bothering me is the timing on all this. Kasabian is on lookout patrol by Parent's car. She hears a man's voice screaming. Obviously Sebring. She runs or walks hurriedly to the house. The distance is less than a hundred feet. In the meantime Sebring is killed, Frykowski fights with Atkins, Frykowski is shot and attacked with the gun butt by Watson, Folger breaks free and runs for it. All this happens before Kasabian reaches the front door where she sees Frykowski stumbling out the front door and she also sees Folger being chased by Krenwinkel. Alot to happen in the time it takes to cover a hundred feet.

Another thing is who delivered the intial wounds to Folger? She is reported by Watson " I looked across the lawn and saw Abigail Folger dashing toward the fence with Katie behind her, knife raised. Blood was already streaking the white nightgown." So she had already been stabbed before breaking free. There was blood splatter reported on the wall close to the hallway entrance by a chair? Possibly where Folger was initially attacked. Krenwinkel would have been the obvious choice on who initially stabbed Folger but does she ever say anything about this? I'm sure I'm missing stuff here so any additional input would be appreciated.

From what I gather, the stabbing began in the living room. Abigail was fighting with Patricia who was going to stab/kill her, so they were in a vicious fight, with Pat slashing her face, perhaps. From what I remember reading in
HS, the fight was so intense, that Pat called over to Tex to help her. Abigail finally got tired of the fighting and Tex came, she said, "take me" and stabbed her in the stomach. Whether that is the wound in which her intestines popped out, is up for debate, but he did stab her in the abdomen area and she fell. I think right after that, she tried to flee and that's when Pat took after her. I think that is where the blood splatter came from, because I always got the impression that somehow, she was behind the sofa and was being slashed and stabbed from both Tex and Pat. Just my opinion, however.

I've always thought that the man she heard screaming was Frykowski. Remember that Jay Sebring was dealt with pretty quickly....his getting shot by Watson set everything off. That and the placing of the rope around the necks of Tate and Folger. Frykowski was struggling with Atkins while she was flailing with the knife. That's the screaming man that Kasabian heard, not Sebring. One man's opinion though.

Going on the below testimony by Pat 2 scenarios are suggested; first that she did not really expect she herself would be doing the dirty work or was in denial of the situation unfolding OR she did not arm herself initially due to reluctance to follow Manson/Watson orders through - she says below that she never fully carried out Mansons orders, begging the question of what else he had expected on the murder nights.
I personally believe the women were only given instructions in the moment, and that Kasabians knife slashed Parent and that Kasabian naturally held the bulk of knives until such time as others required them - as her role was Sergeant in arms, and the inconsistencies in these stories are all resolved once we have LK in the Tate house.

2004 parole hearing
PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ANGELE: Where were you on that particular night, (indiscernible) the files to understand what was going on, but I guess the reason why you actually participated?

INMATE KRENWINKEL: I participated because Mr. Manson came into a trailer where I was taking care of the children and he told me to come out to come to the ranch. When I came up to the front of the ranch there was a car and Mr. Watson was there and Miss Atkins was there and Miss Kasabian was there and Mr. Manson told me to go with Mr. Watson and do whatever he said.

PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ANGELE: What do you
think, once you're inside the residence, what do you think started the murders instead of the robbery because as I read the record, some items and money were stolen? You know that people were asking where the money was and searching the bedroom.

INMATE KRENWINKEL: Mr. Watson determined that that's the way the scene would go. He told us that we was there to kill everyone in the house and he later said that in front of everyone. Susan and I were scared, more tyhan anything but we went along with it (indiscernible) and a lot of people die, and this is after they had already spoken it, and he said that there was just -- we were looking for money and he had made many statements prior to that particular statement while we were inside the house. He said "give me all your money or your dead." or something to that effect. He also said he was the devil, there to do the devils buisness. The people were terrified

2004 psychiatry report
The inmate acknowledged that she knew the difference between right and wrong at the time of the commission of the crime; however, she felt overwhelmed and mortified by Mr. Charles Manson such that she felt that she had not committed the crime she would have been killed for refusing Mr. Manson's directive."

She stated that despite her mortal fear that she would be killed by Mr. Manson, she was still unable to accomplish the instructions he gave her regarding killing the victims.

I just read this......For gurgling noises to be heard (by Atkins) I would think that the heart and lungs were still functioning or partially functioning. The blood was still circulating or moving to or out of areas created by wounds...

Grand Jury testimony, pg. 69

After Atkins stated that she was directed by Watson to "Write something that would shock the world" she gave this testimony:

"........and walked over to Sharon Tate's body and she seemed to have been cut up a lot more than when I had last seen her. I never actually saw her face. Her hair was covering her face and there were sounds coming from her body but I was hearing so much and at that time I wan't hearing anything.

Q: What type of sounds were they?

A: Gurgling sounds like blood flowing into the body out of the heart."

Atkins' choice of words is telling, IMHO. How would she know the sounds of "blood flowing into the body out of the heart"? Why did she use those specific words in her testimony? Did Atkins do some action like press the dying woman's chest to soak the towel with blood and then hear the noise? Did she perform other actions, such as stabbing or moving the dying body to quicken the death?

Virginia Graham's testimony may not have been that farfetched about what she recounted Atkins telling her in jail.

Atkins, in her own words may be right, that is, Sharon Tate was the last to die.....

Appreciate the input. I was going off of Kasabian's testimony. Definately seems to be Sebring.

Bugliosi: Now, you have testified you heard some screams. How long after you arrived at the car where this man was slumped behind the wheel, how long after that did you hear the screams?

Kasabian: Just a few minutes

Bugliosi: Would you tell the Judge and the jury what you heard coming -- strike that-- Were the screams coming from the direction of the residence?

Kasabian: Yes

Bugliosi: Would you tell the Judge and the jury in as much detail as you can recall what you heard?

Kasabian: Just I heard a man scream out---

(Court adjusts microphone)

Kasabian: I heard a a man scream out, "No,no." Then I just heard screams, just-- I don't have any words to describe how a scream is. I never heard it before.

So Sebring's last words would have been "No." At that point there is alot of screaming coming from the others horrified at just having witnessed a murder.
Sebring is shot by Watson.
At which point Kasabian runs to the house. She does say "run" in her testimony. A distance of approx 100 feet.

Let's back up a little bit here. Kasabian testifies that it was only a couple of minutes she spent by Parent's car. That leaves a few minutes and meanwhile what is happening in that house? Folger, Frykowski, Tate and Sebring are being rounded up, brought into the living room, tied up including that rope around their necks. Kasabian testifies that as soon as Sebring screams "No" and others are screaming she takes off for the house. In the time it takes her to run 100 feet Sebring is shot by Watson, Frykowski gets free, Folger gets free and is stabbed at some point, Frykowski tangles with Atkins, (Atkins estimates as it lasting 30 seconds), Watson comes to the aid of Atkins, Fights with Frykowski, Stabs him and probably hits him over the head with gun butt. Also soots him. I'll have to see how many wounds Frykowski had on his head as that's another interesting aspect to this.

How long would it take to run a hundred feet? Kasabian arrives at the front door to see Frykowki exiting the house.

From her Trial Testimony:

Bugliosi: What happened after you ran toward the house?

Kasabian: There was a man just entering out of the door and he had blood all over his face and he was standing by a post and we looked into each other's eyes for a minute, I don't know however long, and I said "Oh, God, I am so sorry. Please make it stop." And then he just fell to ground into the bushes....

So Frykowki's face was bloodied. Would indicate he had suffered head wounds probably from Watson hitting him with the gun butt in the house. Pieces of it were found in the house later by LAPD. She does later testify that Watson, after Frykowski gets back up, is hitting him on the head and stabbing him.

The timing is all off here. There is no way in the time it takes to run a hundred feet could all of that happened.

Cats, do you have the cross-examintion of Kasabian by the Defense? I would love to know if any of this was challenged by them. I still have a ton of questions. LOL. When Kasabian sees Sadie she testifies that Sadie mentions "that she left her knife and she couldn't find it." And then nothing more is said about it. Did Kasabian give her her knife at this point? I would contend that Kasabian did as later when killing Sharon Atkins has a knife.

Yes "Bleeding to Death" would take quite some time to occur. She would have been still alive when Atkins went back into the house but then some of the others might have been also alive at that time.

Yes, this timeline would make more sense if Kasabian was in that house. Kasabian does testify that Katie does come and get a knife before Kasabian hears the screaming and runs to the house. She doesn't mention if she stabbed Abigail Folger while she was in the house? Somebody DID. It seems Atkins and Watson were more than tied up with Frykowski. He fought amazingly hard. Folger was wounded before she ran out the bedroom door.

Also when Kasabian reaches the front door she mentions that Atkins said she had lost her knife. Nothing further is mentioned by Kasabian.

Thanks for the input. Watson came to Krenwinkel's aid when Abigail was outside. I was looking at who inflicted the wounds on Folger prior to her being outside.
Most likely Krenwinkel as Watson was very busy with Frykowski as was Atkins but no one seems to mention this. Any thing you could come up with on who stabbed Folger when she was in the living room would be greatly appreciated.