ROFLMAO at the picture coonhound. And while carrying the clothes around didnt the blood transfer on to the new clean clothes? And Rudolph Weber came forward in the case of Cielo-where is the newspaper bloody clothes guy? Just like the ones who gave the killers a ride back to the Ranch on the night of the LaBianca's-where the hell are these people?
According to Leslie, they sat in the bushes for quite some time before continuing on to Spahn's. She said nothing about getting lost on the way out, on the way to LB she says they got lost, maybe he was confused as to before and after the murders. FB
No need to be scared. I really wasn't trying to ream B17, but people who want to come off a serious students of the Watson/Manson murders and then turn around and make so many erroneous statements are showing me their lack of study. Please, remember this. We generally see 50 - 55 members logging into the site on a daily basis. But that's not the total picture, because we have days when there are over 2,000 visitors to this site in a 24-hour period. And when we have someone talking about some alleged coat Rosemary LaBianca was wearing (it was a blue dress, with white, horizontal stripes) or an 8-shot revolver that was allegedly used at Cielo Drive (it was a 9-shot), or a police report that allegedly says there was little blood at Waverly Drive (when in multiple places it says the exact opposite), we simply cannot allow that kind of misinformation to live on. There are 4 or 5 dozen of us that use this site on a regular basis and we're pretty serious about aspects of these murders and the events surrounding them. But for everyone of us, there might be as many as 40 others who are taking their first steps into this labyrinth. So misinformation has the be called out. There's already so much we don't and likely will never know, so it just makes good sense to make sure things presented as facts are actually factual. Now don't get me wrong, we all make mistakes. For months, I've talked about Atkins' knife being found in the couch cushions. And I was wrong. Plain, flat and simple. The knife was found in the cushions of a chair and not the couch. But this will be the second time I admitted my mistake. So what I'm saying is don't be afraid, just be prepared to be corrected, if you've misstated known facts. Making a mistake is simple and we all do it. But to deliberately and continually mis-state known facts is to make a fool of one's self. And, as you've noticed, if someone wants to make a fool of themselves, I'm generally more than willing to help them wheever I can. The day I was there, L.A. was getting tremendous thunderstorms. Traffic was knotted up. And I was on a rather tight schedule, as I was trying to get to an old racing pal's place of business before he closed for the day. So there were a lot of factors playing against me on the day, but the simple fact of the matter is that I got lost. Ladies, I know you've never heard a man admit that, but it's the truth. I was a stranger in a strange land, driving a rental vehicle in crazy traffic and struggling to see my way in a driving rain. I admit to playing the tourist a bit, so when I left Cielo Drive, I ran Sunset Boulevard across and got on Hyperion Avenue, to run up to Waverly. I drove right past the LaBianca house, but didn't realize it. And how hard can it be to just drive around the block, right? Well, let me tell you, run Waverly Drive on Google maps and take a look at how circular that area is. I got so twisted around, I couldn't even find Waverly again. I finally realized I was on Glendale Bouelvard and just cut a trail for the 5 and headed to Placentia. That area is really confusing. As for Watson living in that area, I guess that's one I've missed. I was aware he once lived in an apartment close to an apartment LaBerge had lived in, but to be honest, I'm not even sure of they lived there at the same time. If anyone can give me some quick learnin' on this, I'm always receptive to new information. It's a very good question, one Cats and I bat around on a regular basis. But we have to remember the string of events from the night before. The killers exited the car, carrying their change of clothing with them. Makes sense, right? I mean if you're going to get soaked with blood, why risk walking down the street in bloody clothes and then getting blood in a borrowed car? They jumped the fence onto the Tate property. did the deed and then returned to the clean clothing stash. They then picked up the clean clothes, opened the gate, then walked down the drive to Cielo. Still wearing the bloody clothes. And apparently with bloody hands, for those who want to believe Watson transferred Sebring's blood to the gate button. I've asked this before, but why not jump in the pool, climb out and then go change clothes, before heading to the car? Why not change clothes before getting in the car? Why risk attracting attention by changing in the car? Why risk driving around with blood on their hands (and possibly arms and faces), bloody clothing and bloody weapons in the car? So why did he carry the knife around with him (along with his bloody clothing) on the second night. Dumber than a stone would be my guess. Why would Manason allegedly give Grogan a firearm with instructions to enter an apartment building and use it to kill someone? I think it all comes back to the famous concept of no sense makes sense. Watson's book is a print reference and is a story told by one of the people who was actually present during the murders, but we have no way to qualify how truhful most of it really might be. And Watson has shown he has no problem being self-serving, so who knows? Well, truth be known, I was once hired on as a co-admin for another site in a totally different niche. Yes, hired, as in I received a monthly salary. And the site owner liked having me there, because I've never been too bashful about things. Which meant when something hard-nosed had to happen, it fell into my lap. The site owner called me his hit-man and the site moderators referred to me as Sauron. True story. I even used a Sauron's eye avatar, for a short while. Some of the avatars I've used on that site - But you're safe, because I'm starting to mellow out in my age. No, really, I am.
Watson and Rosemary never lived near one another. The wig shop that Watson worked at was near the boutique that Rosemary owned!
I remember reading somewhere that TW lived in the Silverlake area for a short time. Not necessarily close to each other but Isn't Waverly in that area? FB
Indeed. I've not carried a key to my father's house for 35 years, but I know where a key is hidden. And another thing if Ruth Sivick knew where the key was hidden how come Frank didn't or if he did why didn't he use it?[/quote] How old was he? I can't remember how far into his teenage years he was. Could it be that he was a typical teenager, and he lost his key? Or maybe Rosemary was so scared about someone coming into their house when they weren't there and moving things around that she maybe took his key, thinking he might be loaning out his key to some of his friends and they were coming in without permission? Stuff like that happens more times than we think, but this is just a suggestion that popped into my head as I was reading. But it is odd how he didn't have a key and his actions he described doing to the police, but then, again, another thought popped into my head---seeing how things didn't look "right" when he first walked onto the property, perhaps he was just wandering around looking at things and noticing all the odd things and I'm guessing he was suspecting in the back of his mind that something bad might of happened and that's why he hollered to his parents from outside, but it wasn't registering. A question that has always bothered me is, how come Leno didn't follow his usual routine for backing the boat in and doing whatever else he usually did? If he was tired, he sure wasn't too tired to get in his jammies and read the paper (race forms?) at two or three in the morning. Purely speculation on my part, but if Suzan was involved somehow, did Tex move the car as a signal to her that the deed was done? I knew someone back in the 80's who grew up and lived in LA for his entire life until he moved to KC and he said in LA, you had to practically nail lawn furniture down in the concrete to keep it from getting stolen and that thieves would do something to the electricity to see if people were home and if no one came out to see what happened, they would rob the house, so when he told me this, and whenever I was at my parents' house and I saw HS book in my dad's study, I always wondered about Leno leaving the boat out---easy pickings for an opportunistic slug. As Mr. Mike said, the questions are just as maddening as in the Cielo murders.
I never had a key to my house when I was a kid. Had to wait on big bro or sis to get home, if I got there before them after school, Mom didnt want me in the house or anywhere for that matter unsupervised cause I was the youngest. But also these questions would go to the theory out there that Susan was behind her parents death, if true, maybe Frank had a suspicion and just didnt want to enter the house and prove his suspicions true, just a thought.
Mike, re your post May 3rd (I'm not going to post up the photos yet again)...I tend to disagree with your Dad's vascular surgeon. Three heartbeats is about 210ml of blood, which even if leaked extravascularly in toto, is not going to render one unconscious, let alone kill....with maybe one exception, if the person is already suffering from a significant loss of blood. Let's assume a tear in the aorta allows a leak of 50ml per beat (from memory the AF autopsy report doesn't give the dimension of the aortic wound), this would mean bleeding out in about 100 heartbeats (if this were the only pathology). The autopsy states up to 2L of blood in the pleural cavities, I would agree this aortic stab wound was the fatal one, as she had at least 1L in her abdominal cavity....this would not in itself be immediately fatal. As you quite rightly point out, her nightdress was also heavily stained with blood (the wounds on her back were quite deep), and she had a tear to her bladder with some blood loss....amount not documented. I believe this fits with a number of non fatal (immediate) stab wounds, with that to her upper chest being the fatal (not necessarily final though) one. Her pulse would have been high (over 100 with all the adrenalin secreted) and the 2L would have leaked out fairly quickly. The other interesting thing is the wound is described as being in the midline, obliquely upward and laterally (not sure what is meant by this, "laterally" should be qualified by either "left" or "right"). One way to effect this wound would be from kneeling in front of the head of the supine AF, and as the wound penetrated the sternum, this would be my suggestion. Supporting this is the report saying a through and through wound of the trachea below the larynx, but not actually confirming this was from stab wound 8. In the absence of any other wound reported, it has to be 8. The sternum is not an insignificant bone, the stab would have had to have been quite forceful and leads one to suspect it was from Tex, to go through bone, and then slash the aorta and transect the trachea. The angiotensin story is a little complex, while it is a vasoconstrictor, it is a relatively slow responder to haemorrhage compared to adrenalin. Both will raise the blood pressure. It requires the release of an increased amount of a precursor from the liver, in addition to the release of an enzyme called renin from the kidneys, this renin release is triggered by low blood pressure in the kidneys and converts the precursor to angiotensin I, which is biologically inert. A-I is then converted to A-II by yet another enzyme, again mostly in the kidneys. This constricts blood vessels, but only up to a certain calibre will this be significant, same as adrenaline. Hoever, there are kilometres of small vessels, constrict them all and you have (in the abscence of massive blood loss) an increase in blood pressure with a given blood volume having to occupy a smaller vascular volume. A response to blood loss resulting in lower blood pressure is more likely to be adrenaline secretion in the short term. I agree with your blood spatter argument BTW.
Pele, may I politely ask your medical credentials? Mike sounds like a layman that went through this personally with his dad, so he would naturally gather a lot of information. Mike, please correct me if I am wrong. Pele / Mike, quite a lot for people like me to absorb, just wondering of your professional backgrounds (without revealing identities, of course.)
No sweat Miss T., I'm a primary care physician with over 30 years' experience in the private sector. I work in a 12 Doctor medical centre Down Under, and have recently become intrigued again about the TLB incidents, fuelled by this extraordinary website. I do a lot of skin cancer surgery, so I know how tissues react when incised. I'm "untainted", having not read HS, somewhere in my archives I have a copy of the Bug's summing up, and I recently copied a TV doco re-enactment of the Tate killings, ? made in 2009.....shows SP being shot in his car by Tex but through the passenger's window....go figure. Someone here will no doubt be able to identify the show, I didn't quite get to tape the very start....LK sorta documents throughout. My experience on an archaelogical website has taught me that while newbies can sometimes be a bit of a drag early on, asking Q's already answered, it doesn't hurt to have a fresh minds going over old ground.
I'm not really trying to be critical, just calling it as I see it. I guess I can be a touch insightful because of my scientific training. I am by no means a forensic pathologist, nor would claim in any way to be. It's just that as a builder could recognise a defect in a house, I get an intuitive feel when things pertaining to my knowledge don't gel. You can tell by many posts from others here that they know what they're talking about.
the key thing really bothers me . i left home at 17 and had a key until mom died when i was 30 . my stepdad changed the locks and didnt give me one . why wouldny one of the kids have a key ??>
Not sure if this was discussed, but was the boat on the street when Frank arrived or was it moved by police for removal of the bodies. the only pictures I've found the car and speedboat are on the street.
it was in the drive way thats why frank thought there was something wrong leno always put it up the drive way near the garage
http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/labiancas-boat-in-driveway.1451/ A screenshot I took a few years back from footage of the boat in the driveway. (it appears all over the internet now)
