I just read a witness interview of Tex in which he says he only shot Parent, then went to House with Sadie on his heels. Linda and Pat did not arrive until after they'd got on with herding everyone together. Pat was frank in admissions of her role, so it occurs that it was Kasabian who stabbed/slashed, especially as she admits going through Parents stuff. Was she "too shook up" by some initial involvement so was left as the look out or chose this? Did she change clothes, dispose of her knife?
The slashing of Steven has never been explained. The knife count makes no sense either...if Susan's knife was in the couch bloodless, and she had to go get Linda's with the taped handle before all stabbing of Voytek etc...it makes no sense.
She didn't get Lindas before Voytek, as when Linda said "make it stop" Atkins reply was "it's too late" and words to effect of "besides I'm powerless to intervene as I lost my knife...." implying Jay and Voytek at least had already been felled. So why was Susan outside on her lonesome, at this point when Linda came down... she may have told Nellie (per Nellie FWIW) it's because she and Tex argued. Possibly this was just after Katie commended "kill her' re Tate and when Susan declined that she flitted out - if that constitutes an argument. But when she returned inside with or without Lindas knife to guard Sharon while the others finished Gibby it seems she had no knife, as she says that just before Tex killed Sharon she "kind of grabbed her wrists" (which would take both hands. In one statement I'm sure she also said she got Sharon in a headlock which implies being unarmed, before alllowing her to sit down for better comfort. She said Sharon was out of her mind in fear so I believe that with the neck rope and the prior manhandling Sharon was not going to run. Sharons strategy was the same semi unsuccessful one as I use once when raped - trying to talk your way out of it... this strategy comes from a belief people can be reasoned with and from a belief or sense that fighting or running will antagonise your attacker causing increased violence. Humanising oneself and cooperating versus fight/flight is often a winner for surviving lost control. Apparently I was spot on re my attacker - Police said my talk way out strategy versus a fight strategy saved my life, as the kidnapper had knocked off victims before. No wonder Sharon practiced roll over - she thought she could win a woman over, to a point she did more shown by Susans inaction than her incongruent words and by Susans concern for the baby (she considered a post mortem rescue) ... but then Tex came back.
In "Will You Die for Me", Tex W. (Helter Skelter I) states he cut Steven P. with a knife and shot him as well. Whether TW's story is true or not........ is another story. This Chapter also reveals insight into TW's thinking.... for example..... "Charlie told me.... etc. What Tex doesn't include is...... "I listened to CM, interpreted CM's statements, made decisions to comply to what was said, thought about what to do, made decisions to accept, delete, or reinterpret directives from CM, made decisions to plan (wire cutters, cut wires),.......decisions, decisions, decisions. IMHO Tex has not taken responsibility for his actions......it is hard for me to buy the "Devil made me do it routine". Joe
But then whose knife did Susan use to stab with if hers was bloodless on the couch? I think perhaps Sharon did try to talk with her attackers, or maybe she was just plain out of her mind from watching what came down. Susan said basically she sounded like an IBM machine, and she wouldnt shut up and that is why she stabbed her. Or, at least at one point this was Susans story.
I don't buy that she stabbed her for one minute, and when she told all that baloney even the Prosecutor jumped up and said she was lying. The appeal judgment surprisingly says the couch knife was Kasabians. So the possible scenario is that the knife used to stab voyteks legs did connect, and was later collected from the scene by whoever among them cleaned up and got ditched off site. The Kasabian knife may have been taken in the house by Atkins after that exchange outside the house, but unused was ditched or lost fairly promptly in the chaos. Or it got there by Lindas entry.
Will have to find the picture of it in the couch. From what I recollect, it didnt have the taped handle so I am thinking it isnt Lindas.
Appeal may have made wording error. Susan clearly believed it was hers, but apparently only discovered it was unblooded very late in the piece... after appeals I think. Maybe this was discovered when her lawyer husband went over the evidence again and observed what you did? Tex may have it muddled as a double tool whammy seems unnecessary & tricky, he was sleep deprived and on belladonna and stimulants so was a bit of a sleep walker and likely to have amnesiac patches, he may just be trying tyo appear to parole board as taking full responsibility as he has assumed he stabbed Parent but truly isn't sure. His weapon account said a gun and a knife with no handle which he can't remember if it was wrapped for comfort.
According to the property reports-there was a bundle of dark clothing found on the Cielo property and then the one further up the road which had one knife in it. Perhaps the bundle on the Cielo property was Lindas, but that leaves to question, if she bundled the knives up into the clothing like instructed, then where are they? I beg to differ on Tex-his actions in the face of Rudolph Weber tell me he was indeed at a good functioning level or it could have been all over at that point.
If I'm not mistaken I think there is a picture of the knife in Helter Skelter. Has Patricia Krenwinkel given testimony about the actions of LK, SA, and/or TW about "what went down" at the Tate residence. I only wished there was some way to reexamine existing crime scene data (clothing, knives, etc.) with modern technology and forensics. It may clear up some the questions that appear to be unanswerable and speculative.
Not sure, but as she was very active she may not have been too observant. Note how very few threads are in her forum likely as sheis tightlipped. Kasabian has a lot more of a role for sure - as Susan said somewhere obscure that she could understand that she had to do what she had to do, but has also taken odd shots at her... hints dropped etc. It does not look like the case was composed of forensic planks much and I suspect there was cause for not looking too close in case of "inconveniences" as the idea was to reduce culpability and up sympathy for whoever would became the State tell-tit (and case saviour). The HS circus and need only to prove involvement seems to have distracted from any interest in conscientiously pinning down specifics like who did what when. Focus was elsewhere.
Krenwinkle is tightlipped and you're right, the threads in her forum are not offering in-depth explanation or analyses of her roles in the homicides. IMHO I've suspected she was just as active as TW in the killing spree at the Tate residence. She was fiercely loyal to Manson, she was athletic, and she appeared very adept at what she did. She did not seem to have the depths of the emotional problems as Atkins (who appeared to be inept in a killer role) or Fromme, although she was most likely "ripe" for manipulation and coercive tactics from CM and others. Joe
So we have Susan and Cats saying the couch knife didn't look like Lindas. We have Susan not discovering her knife was clean till 20 years later. As originaly (as per Appeal documents ongoing claim) the couch knife was put down as Lindas. Maybe this was more creativity from Prosecutors (like the Bernard Crowe perjury) to usefully 1) undermine Susans shot at a defense 2) Bolster the Angel Linda make-over. If it's Lindas knife - how did it get there? If it's Atkins (makes more sense) then she likely stabbed noone... Seems Bugliosi thought it was Atkins or why else did he heckle and jeer saying she was perjuring as regard her claim to have killed Tate. Bugliosis main cause for disbelief would be that he knew the bloodless knife was Susans... and/or other witness statements ie no eyewitness said Susan did it and Tex only let her "confession" ride as it suited his self interest at the trial time. I vote that it was Susans knife. Which leaves the q of whether that other knife found with dark clothing was Lindas, and if so was it blooded with Parents type. Jo you are right, reexamining may not get anyone off the hook, but it might put someone on.
I remember LK saying last year (40th anniversary special) that after Parent was shot she snatched his wallet. Maybe she stopped by his car to get the wallet on her way back to their car and he wasn't dead yet. Maybe he tried to grab her, begging for help and she slashed him out of fear or whatever?? Where did the cops find his wallet, on the seat in the car, his pocket, outside the car?
Don't know but just read noguchi report and it appears he would have died fast from gunshot injury - I imagine he was in no state to raise an arm to get a defensive wound, could be she had her knife in hand while riffling through the car, and glanced it on his arm just cutting it incidentally?? Only one cut is interesting - very inhibited, pointless or even symbolic versus other slashings. Utterly weird. Perhaps it was done post mortem - maybe even by CM later when he turned up? Was the radio he took to Garretsons found?
Wasn't the cut pretty deep though to be an accidental cut? If it was done post mortem, did they have the knowledge 41 years ago to tell the difference between a post mortem stab wound and one done while the person was still alive?
You're right, but it was short at 3 inches and tangential to skin surface which gues means oblique. I just reenacted it kind of and given you guys ar in the other side of the car the gun shot all seem reasonable from someone standing several feet (head shot) then a few feet away (defensive dorsal arm and chest shots) BUT the angle of Parents palm cut is all wrong running from middle finger back. Not done by someone to the front left of him so easily - unless Tex had gun in right hand, knife in left, went to rear of front door to get in car and slashed upwards, as an already mortally wounded parent multiply wounded guy raised turned his arm to face palm out on an arm that was just shot through. Seems more like a girl with a knife or Tex approached the car after the first shots but before any fatal shots were fired. This might mean one or two shots one hitting his cheek, approach car to try opening door, Parent says "I'm your friend", knife is shoved at him as whoever tries to open the door eg to get keys as they think or want to check if the first shot got him, no so that person returns to front left of car or another person at front of car then delivers final fatal arm/chest shots. One possible scenario, or else he did survive the shots a minute or two and manage to raise his am defensively when LK riffled around - and she did the slash. I just can't see someone woith such severe chest/arm injuries still defending with the wounded arm. But I do think the slash came from an angle of parryin someone who was trying to get in the car from a door opening position.
Linda Kasabian was left outside. The only thing we have to go by is her testimony that she remained outside...what was she doing? It just occured to me that they were under orders to kill everyone and rob valuables. Could it be that Linda was responsible for that slash wound on Steven Parent's wrist? She had a knife on her....maybe she was trying to get that watch off of his wrist when all hell broke loose....the screaming inside? She could have been interrupted by that and lost focus and turned her attention to the front of the house then having to give up her knife to Susan. Linda was given immunity for her testimony so if she had slashed Parent that immunity could have been revoked. Pretty good reason to keep her mouth shut on that wouldn't you say? Maybe Parent was still alive when Tex Watson moved on to the house and Linda was around to witness his last moments..... I've just never thought she was the "little hippie girl" who couldn't kill. I've seen other postings about the History Channel interview saying how wistful she looked in speaking about the Family before the murders. It strikes me that she is so morose (not remorseful) because she is still carrying around a little bit more guilt than she's admitted to. Does anyone else feel this way?
Just re-read Too Late's response.....I'm not the only one who feels that something is amiss with Kasabian.
linda held him at gun point during the time of the killings, and tex shot him going out of cielo, not going in. but i dont know about the slashing, did he try to run away?
