Sorry, I couldn't get this any bigger. I tried everything I know which isn't much. You'll need to blow it up from your side. If you prefer it is on the Crimeshots.com website near the bottom of the page on Manson. After studying this map, it looks like Tate/Sebring ran for the front door. Blood on the trunks, porch, walkway, bushes and the scarf located near VF are type "O".. The blood found on the broken gun grip found near the chair had type o blood--Sebrings type .In Kasabian's testimony she states " A man with blood running down his face came out the door and fell in the bushes". She never said it was VF. We have been told (Bugliousi) it was VF but I'm thinking it was Jay after looking at the map. I don't think he was dead when F / F ran out the back. Isn't it possible that Katie and Tex (thinking Jay was down) ran out the back chasing down F/F? Sadie was left alone to stand guard on T/S. Sebring distracts Sadie so Sharon can try her escape. She gets to the porch where she is stabbed repeatedly in the back by Sadie and slumps against the porch post bleeding. Sebring makes his move for the door where he encounters Sadie who calls for Tex as he falls bleeding nto the bushes begging Kasabian for help.Tex comes and finishes Sebring off.Then goes into panic mode from body to body making sure everyone is dead, drags both Tate and Sebring back into the house. Finishes Sharon off by stabbing her in the chest several more times. All of the type "B" blood goes out the back bedroom door leading me to believe that Folger and Frykowski went that way. On first impression of the crime scene one would assume that VF came out the front door (blood trail and location of his body). This doesn't fit the forensic evidence. I think Tex left Sadie to guard Sharon thinking Jay was dead and went with Katie after F / F. Sorry I couldn't get the map any larger......FB
Can someone help me straighten out the mess I made of the previous post? I followed Jem's instructions but it clearly didn't work for me....... :ah: :ah: :ah: FB
FB, I grabbed the images, rescaled them a bit, to make them easier to read and got them inserted into your post.
Thanks Mike and Cooltide. The blood maps fascinate me. They definitely tell a story, what do you see there. My theory has some holes in it but would explain how the blood wound up on the porch without someone returning to the scene and moving bodies all over the place. But why would the killers not tell this story if it were true? Unless Susan managed to get them both back in the house while PK /TW were taking care of F/ F. She would have been the only one to know that they almost got away. And I do think it was Jay that Linda met at the door not VF. The blood evidence tells me this is true. FB "The blood doesn't lie".......Dexter Morgan
FB, as plausible as many other theories. In all the confusion it would have been easy to mix up JS with VF. Sebring's face would have been covered in blood and swollen from earlier assault and LK (according to testimony) had not entered premises, so did not know what clothes JS/VF were wearing. The wounds on sharon's back (horrific, hadn't seen that photo before ) could be consistent with being chased down . It would make more sense than CM returning and risking capture or leaving evidence of his presence on the property. ( is it possible in your scenario that LK, yes LK even helped SA to get control of situation , hence VB stil babysitting all her public utterances on TLB ) Long shot probably as you would think PK,SA would have mentioned this during trial/penalty phase, they did say she masterminded the whole crazy episode. As always in this case "no sense makes sense"
Makes alot of sense Free.. Linda contradicts herself though about speaking to Frykowski. I do believe at points she said I'm sorry...but under her cross by Kanarek she said she didnt speak to him. Argh. Also, if the drug burn of Linda is to be the motive for Tate (or was it to get Bobby out??) then if she was the mastermind of Cielo, then what was the purpose of the next night on Waverly?
Excuse me, Miss Kitty Cats, but until you answer my query about Joe Dorgan, you don't get to ask that question. And depending on your answer about Dorgan, the question might become moot. :winkn:
Food for thought there Mellyn.. Or, if I place securely upon my head my TF Hat, what if they both were non random? Charlie knew Melcher had moved and what if he knew the starlet and her friends had moved into the house...for some reason the LaBianca's were the actual targets for reasons unclear to us. The night on Cielo definately overshadows the night on Waverly because of who was killed. What if this was the point. Alas Mike-we shall discuss Joe Dorgan :hi: :hi:
I have always been curious as to why and how Dorgan was able to stay out of the mix so easily.. Charlie admits to knowing him through the Straight Satans and he found the bodies at Waverly Dr. Suzan La Berge (sp?) doesn't even use his name, she refers to him as "another man" when she speaks about the night her parents were found. Very odd if you ask me. I would think Bugliousi would have been all over him. FB
Mind stabbing someone is much more personal than shooting someone. You have to get up close and personal with the person you're stabbing. Watson says Manson told him to only use the gun in extreme need, to keep the sound down. Witnesses say they heard people screaming, during the night at Cielo. Why stab someone, when you can easily kill them by cutting their throats? You not only silence them, but you are nearly certain the victim will bleed out. But the murderers chose to inflict multiple stab wounds, instead. Bearing in mind the personal nature of a stabbing, let's count the stab wounds. Sharon Tate - 16 stab wounds Abigail Folger - 28 stab wounds Jay Sebring - 7 stab wounds, 1 gunshot wound There's a total of 51 stab wounds. That's a whole lotta stabbin' goin' on. But look at this number - Voytek Frykowski - 51 stab wounds, 2 gunshot wounds and 13 blunt force strikes to the head. Frykowski has as many stab wounds as the rest of the victims, cumulatively. Is it really that much of a stretch to imagine Frykowski was attracting a lot more attention than the other victims? If you're a mindless robot, programmed to kill everyone at the house, why would you waste time whacking Frykowski over the head? Cut the man's throat and put an end to him. Bugliosi suggests Frykowski struggled for his life? OK. Maybe. But what if Frykowski took so many more hits because he was the one being punished for something? Parent was shot, as was Sebring. Folger wasn't fighting for her life, as she ran through the house and out onto the lawn? Sharon Tate wasn't fighting for her baby's life, not to mention her own? Look at the next evening. Leno LaBianca - 12 stab wounds and a total of 14 puncture wounds from a double-tined fork (meaning 7 more stabs with the fork) Rosemary LaBianca - 41 stab wounds Once again, Bugliosi is selling that Mrs. LaBianca was struggling for her life. Does this mean Leno LaBianca just laid down and allowed himself to be stabbed to death, instead of fighting to protect his wife? If we add in Parent's defensive wound, that's a total of 156 knife wounds. Frykowski accounts for 32.69% of those wounds. Rosemary LaBianca accounts for 26.28% of those wounds. Collectively, those two suffered 58.97% of the knife wounds. I look at those numbers and wonder why those two victims took well over half the brunt of the attacks. FB, I would really like to know just how involved Joe Dorgan was with the Straight Satans. If there really was a connection there, I am of the opinion you could start drawing lines to connect Hinman, Cielo Drive and Waverly Drive. Here, cook your noodle over some questions. Was Dorgan a Straight Satan? Wasn't DeCarlo a Straight Satan? And for the big question - Why was DeCarlo really so scared? Can you see a biker being frightened of a loser con, say someone like a Charlie Manson? It's only a theory, but I think Bugliosi had made too many deals and had invested too much in the Helter Skelter theory, before he realized he was pointed in the wrong direction.
Just a theory, what follows, but could the explanation of the disproportionate and excessive distribution of stab woulds lie in the contents of the Gerber jar? In the words of Amphetamine Annie, 'speed kills' (perhaps in more than one sense, on this occasion). Judge for yourselves whether the frenzied hacking might just have been the result of flying on those little pills. Jem
Watson claimed that stash was between he and Atkins. Why wasn't Atkins hacking away at Sharon Tate, while Watson was turning Frykowski into a pin cushion? If Watson was frenzied on speed, why wasn't he hacking away at all the victims? Why just Frykowski? There's no mention of the Gerber jar on the second night, yet Rosemary LaBianca has over three times the stab wounds as her husband. Isn't it amazing how efficient a killing machine Krenwinkel was at Cielo Drive, but was a damsel in distress at Waverly Drive?
No way to answer these things other than speculation, which isn't helpful. But speed makes you frenzied, not consistent. As likely, perhaps, to stab a cushion twenty times as a person. Maybe VF just rubbed Tex up the wrong way. Maybe PK just became hysterical. And speed affects different people in different ways. And the same person in different ways on different occasions. As for the second night, absence of evidence (the jar) is not evidence of absence (and there is no evidence of presence either). But I don't like speculation, which is all this is. Jem
Interesting point, Mike. Voytek Frykowski & Rosemary LaBianca are also the two that have been most often alleged to have been involved in serious drug dealing. Though (at least in Rosemary's case) there's very little (if any) hard evidence to support this. Jem, surely "speculation" is a necessary part of figuring anything in life out. All "speculation" though needs to be balanced against whatever can be actually "proven". It's rigid belief based on "speculation" that I have trouble with...
Good questions Mike. At one point ( maybe more than one) the Bikers went to Spahn to get their President back and he still stayed with the family, Why? Certainly not the sex , it couldn't have been that great. How was it that a big, bad biker gang was unable to get one of their own back? After hearing about Hinman they took their sword back and left DeCarlo. When someone enters my little world who "scares" me I do my best to stay as far away from them as possible. I don't let them live with me and visa versa. It isn't like the biker gang wouldn't protect him from them if he had left Spahn. Charlie probably had knowledge of nefarious activities the bikers were up to but I can't see them being blackmailed by the likes of Charlie. Alas, another mystery........ FB
