Autopsy of Abigail Folger

why do they test acid phosphatase?

Must be awful even having your sex life scrutinized by police, news, now us - no sperm - either that says something about her hygiene or her relationship with Frykowski.

By the way who did the poodles belong to - if a Yorkie, 2 poodles, a Weimeraner and a small kitten were taken to the pound - where was Gibby's Dalmatian?  Or did I misread.

no sperm just means she didn't have sex recently... or that she wasn't assaulted... I wouldn't think hygiene would play a part..

Cats, that makes sense...

Usually the general public wouldn't have access to autopsy reports and the like so this is kind of an exception ... and plus it is almost 40 years later LOL

By the way who did the poodles belong to - if a Yorkie, 2 poodles, a Weimeraner and a small kitten were taken to the pound - where was Gibby's Dalmatian?  Or did I misread.

I found the answer to this on Sharon Tate's Official website.  Both Prudence(Sharon's dog) and Tom (Gibby's Dalmation) were taken to the pound.  Mr & Mrs Tate & Deborah went to get Prudence and saw Tom.  Deborah asked if they could take him too and they said "no".  They finally agreed that she could rescue him and find him a home & that is what she did. 

Prudence lived w/ Mr. & Mrs. Tate for about 10 years.  Deborah said that she was there visiting one day & Prudence had gotten out of the house and she backed over her and she was killed.  Deborah says, "Prudence is with Sharon"

I found this on the website where she is answering questions:  http://www.sharontate.net/60thbd/sharon_questions_answered.html

Who choked her or was she suspended like Sharon and choked by the rope?

Petichiae - it's when the blood vessels rupture in the eyes from being choked.

I have read that Sharon and Gibby were tied by the rope over the rafter to keep them from moving about and getting away - but petichiae takes a severe choke almost in order to occur.

Imogene how much you would have to have pressure for your the vessels in your eyes to rupture - even a little bit - '

It just makes me suspect that the whole story is hogwash by the preps - the amount of viciousness is just unbelievable isn't it?

I thought it was Sharon and Jay tied together with the rope?

It was in the final tableau that the police found but in several accounts of the killers testimonies both were kept in place by the rope -

Gibby got free, Sharon didn't.

Jay died or was close to death either as they were trying to tie everyone up or later when incapacitated.

There is all evidence that Sharon was not held down by Sadie - or anyone and not sitting crying and begging on the sofa - if I'm reading the accounts of her autopsy correctly it seems that she was suspended when they started stabbing her in the back - she was most likely suspended when she was slashed ac cross the face because an actress (as probably all women's) Natal reflex gesture is to try and protect the face and there were no defense wounds.

It would seem apparent that same with Gibby - it's as if both were rope bound and Tex or whoever slashed one and then the other across the face - which would have puthis position in the middle of the two women and turning from one to another quickly -

According to Nachuchi - (he probably had our esteemed Dr. Henry's notes)  Sharon was suspended at or near the time of death

Cats, Coroner, et al -

Went through a bit of the senario with my husband last night - I wish I could get him to be a slightest bit interested because he does this sort of thing so well (but he doesn't even like to watch investigative or true crime movies it's too much like work - he would rather put on a horrible karate lick flick)

In order for 1 man with a gun and 3 chicks to subdue 2 women, 2 man - one huge and a Holocaust survivor and 1 with a black belt - keep two other men out incapacitated as to not be able to runor get help -

There would have to have been times of separation.

He say Garrettson would have never hid close to the house - he would have made his way out of the yard - the directon going down is a lot easier than climbing - the slope on either side of the house would help a quick escape - even if one had to roll down the embankment or slid -

No way Garrettson couldn't have heard the shots if Parent were killed first - the proximately of the car to the guest house was close - sound travels from left to right = in a canyon sound travels circular but still from right to left -

For example (he said) imagine two lightening strikes in your hard and you are on the left side of the house -

Or envison what a whirlwind looks like - it circular motion picks up and twirls debres from right to left -

Why?  He didn't know - doesn't care - it's just an truism in recreation of sound and wind patterns related to accidents and crimes - the only time it varies is during a hurricane, torado or cyclone and not often.

I'll finish this later.

To further your argument along, Linda Kasabian didn't participate, so this knocks the number of killers down by one, and Sebring did not have a black belt, he only took a couple of self defense lessons from Bruce Lee.

I think it would be easy for them to subdue the victims, right up til the point where the situation escalated to violence.  These people didn't know they were going to be murdered, or they would've fought back immediately.

They were taking the victims to the same place.  This is much easier to do than to split people up.  There is strength in numbers. 

Secondly, a man with a gun who can probably shoot your friends or you before you can get to him, you really probably should do what he says, statistically speaking at least.

So, the allowed themselves to be gathered into one room.  At the very first sign of an uprising, Tex shot Jay.  I'm sure Tex was prepared to do this at any point along the way with the first person who resisted.  I tend to believe that if this hadn't happened, the whole scene would've gone more like the second night.  Victims tied up and somewhat controlled, not running across the lawn being chased down.  And quite possibly, time to visit the house next door too??

But it wasn't the number of attackers that mattered, it was the threat of potential violence.

Bryane - you bring up an excellent point ... had it been a calmer situation, there probably would have been more murders that first night.  They also would have had time to make the murder scene more "witchy' with mutilations and hangings.

This probably belongs in a Jay thread.

It isn't even karate it's taekwondo that Jay learned from Bruce Lee.  Master PAx was establishing the first dojos in the US and it certainly wasn't the competitive sport that it was in the Orient during the 60's.  Jay had a black belt but his rank was sort of an akin to the phrase honorary doctorate (ya don't have to have a degree to get that one)  - Master Pax needed to use US celebrities in order to popularize and introduce art here in the states.  Jay fell in that category.

My husband is a real black belt - so are my sons - when my boys were advancing in the practice I used to hear the term "to down a million and one assailants" - both had the ability but one  had the personality to do this - this other only the technique - big difference.

My husband and his colleagues introduced the art of pressure point defense into US martial arts in the 80's - before that it was sort of a Chinese 'myth' thing - it's like "the way of the hand' one can  kill an enemy with simply finding the correct place on their body and applying pressure - (behind the ear) or incapacitate them with one motion by applying  pressure into a a specific area  of the forearm.  All FBI, DEA, CIA agents  and Swat teams (law enforcement) can be taught pressure point defense without going through the full practice of martial arts.

US special forces use both - and also reinforcements like conditioning, kickboxing, weight training, grappling etc. - but their objective is death while the agents objective is not as serious...LOL

However, even back then a person who practiced enough with a teacher like Bruce Lee could relieve a man of a .22.

And very easy to take down a woman with a knife -

Jay's personality was not one to truly excel at this particular sport - it was said that he was shy and reserved and hesitate.  A black belt is never hesitate - however, he wasn't looking at 'a million and one assailants either' he was looking at one man and two women.

Plus he had a survivor like Frykowski in the room and even pregnant Sharon was lithe and athletic.  According to the autopsy Gibby looks like she was in excellent shape.  Patricia looks like a former fat girl who had lost some weight and Susan certainly looks formidable - but not as formidable as the two men and the two women she was in the room with - Susan says her feet were oozing with sores - Tex describes the  lack of food out at Barker and Myers -

In fearfull situations adrenaline causes the mind to think quickly - very quickly - almost like 'doing a line of coke' - it also causes perphieal vision to come into play in the brain (you see out of the corner of your eyes like a horse does)

The adrenaline level within the room on all sides must have been awesome - gun or not - can you imagine.  I'm sticking to what the police said in the investigation when they were mystified why at least one didn't escape.

I know all this stuff because I have lived it - but I'm he world's biggest coward.  But I know from first hand experience that adrenaline causes inordinate strength when SURVIVAL instinct kicks in - I've done it in the water in a riptide.

Someone should have survived in that room - my question is why they didn't.

More again later.

I don't know whether to post this - possibly 'investigation'?

Roped husband into a conversation regarding some more aspects of Tate crime -

Found out these things -

The first report from the police usually contains 'gut feelings' and while not being exactly accurate bears the mark of subjective perception.  Later reports might be clouded by reading media accounts (they read the news - revelation to me! LOL), second guessing and the addition of forensics.

After all before sophisticated technology criminals were being caught on those 'gut feelings' rendered at the crime scene.

First report says:

The second theory is that as Parent left the Garretson residence he observed either part or all of the above-described crimes. He ran for his car, which was parked somewhere in the paved parking area of the property. He entered the car, backed it up at a high rate of speed, struck the curb and knocked down the split-rail fence previously described. He then turned the car in a westerly direction, and in an attempt to evade his pursuers turned the car at an odd angle toward the gate. At this point, he was caught and killed.

According to the interviews that came in - this would jive with the sound patterns.

Coroner and detectives all concur that the weapon is a bayonet.  Interesting because that puts Charlie closer to the scene.  Or at least his bayonet which he was so proud of -


After a close examination of the victim's wounds and conferring with the medical examiners that performed the post mortums, examinations on the bodies, Dr. Nuguchi, Dr. Henry, and Dr. Herrera, investigating officers have come to the following conclusions, #1 the knife that inflicted the stab wounds was probably a bayonet. The bayonet being extremely sharp for at least a distance of three inches. One edge becoming flat at that point. The blade length is at least six inches long and there is probably a guard on the weapon. Although the blade entered the most of the bodies six inches no imprint from the guard was left on the bodies.


It seems like someone - (everyone in the house is mentioned but Folger) has summounded or meet the killers at the door and the first attack might happen there.  Well I don't think it was Sharon - she wasn't dressed like she was expecting compnay so that leaves Sebring and Frykowski.  However she was on the porch at one time or other - regardless - because...


The two suspects now turn their attention to Sebring and Polanski who are still on the front porch. It is possible that the suspects rendered Sebring and Polanski unconscious before going after Frykowski. This would be consistent with the fact that Sebring had a large abrasion to the bridge of his nose and when discovered had a large hematoma swelling and bruising of the left eye. The large pool of blood which is described as on the front porch, approximately 6.inches south of the north edge of the porch is Sebring's type, O-MN. Directly Northeast and just off of the porch is a small hedge which was broken down as if someone had lain there for some time.

The large pool of blood described as 6 inches east of the east wall of the house and even with the door jamb to the front door is type O-M, the same as Sharon Polanski's. From the amount of blood there it would appear that she remained there for at least minutes prior to movement.

I would imagine that Sharon was stabbed in the living room and dragged to the front porch in that case.

Jay might have fought on the front porch - and been rendered incapacitated with the butt of the gun - Tex says he used it on Frykowksi - but the blood pattern proves different.

The following items are considered of paramount importance to the investigation. #1, the above described gun grips with the blood type O on them.

Meaning that either Sharon or Jay were hit with the gun hard enough to break the handle.  Sharon's autopsy report doesn't indicate this but Jay's does - so it must have been him.

It would have been difficult for Seymour Kott to hear "Oh God, stop" at 12:30 from Jay if Jay was only in the living room by the fireplace - but Mr. Kott tells the investigators that the voice did not have an accent.

Husband says - "People lapse into their own language during these sort of times - to an untrained ear the "Oh God Stop' that was said several times would have sounded like German - (closest to Polish in guttural accent tones) but no accent apparent. 


Who else does that leave?  Steven Parent when caught - but Steven has type B blood and the porch is filled with O and O-M - However it doesn't rule out Steven screaming this because there is his blood type many places as well -

Position of body could indicate Parent had been dragged and flung into the front seat.  Then door slammed. Or Parent flees to the car after wounded - killed and door slammed.

Husband agrees with Mike - especially told that body was in state of advanced rigor mortis - from lack of blood evidence from around the car and the lots of blood evidence other places Steven might have been caught, attacked, shot once or twice and made it to the car where his keys were already in the ignition and than shot two or three times more to finish him off.  If he were killed in the car his watch wouldn't have flown off in the backseat where it was found -

Take your left hand put it up and see where your watch would land if you were contained and stationary.  In a whirlwind it might have gotten in the backseat, but husband says it was most likely picked up by assailants and thrown in the car and it landed in the back seat.

I do not see where the watch stopped at a certain time - am I missing something?  Will check back and see - I've always assumed this or have read this somewhere which negates the visual and sound evidence - Husband says visual and sound evidence in the first report are closer to truth situation.  Again gut feeling and not as second guessed.  He said which piece of evidence is more important in that case.  It's a decision to contemplate.

He is also wondering if there was actually another pair of glasses that are referred to in the press that were found by the car and these were Steven Parents and dropped in haste of flight - or thrown down by assailants.  Not to be confused with the 'red herring' pair.

Where were Steven's glasses, Cat?  Am I missing him among his possessions?

The Rambler (Ambassador model) is showing second gear and has bucket seats.  Indicative of a standard shift and not automatic.  Assailents could have rolled the car back into the split rail fence.  Now another senario - what if Steven backed the car into the split rail when he was leaving - might account for the first gunshots or 'backfires' being heard after midnight - he has seen Sharon and Gibby when he first comes up to the guesthouse (as per conversation with Garrettson) and this is an excuse to walk up and report the 'accident' to the occupants.  The assailants might already be in the middle of death or drug transaction.  He walks up at the'wrong' time.

Husband thinks Gibby and Sharon could have been laying down and when "Oh God" happened on front porch it brought them out of the bedrooms in a state of undress and emergency.  That wold get Sharon on the front porch.

He also wants to know why we think that Charlie was not around during the fray?  From reports of killers (they protect perfect Charlie later - why not from the beginning) or is there NO EVIDENCE THAT LINKS HIM THERE AT THE BEGINNING?  That was an interesing thought.

Husband is perplexed by the amount of the bullets used to kill someone who is in stopped car - waste of bullets on a gun that misfires to begin with - also two should have put Parent down and out if he was 'captive' and 'contained' in the vehicle.

(For those of you who don't know me - husband is Director Law Enforcement at an academy connected with a university.  He also has developed academic  curriculum for FBI, CIA and DEA agents training -  but

Of late -  since  he is a linguist and a cultural  analysis specialist (multi African, French and Italina)  he's working on projects that study international terrorism and the training that recognizes and combats such... )

Post script - two items

- Husband thinks Gibby and Sharon could have been laying down and when "Oh God" happened on front porch it brought them out of the bedrooms in a state of undress and emergency.  That wold get Sharon on the front porch.

He also wants to know why we think that Charlie was not around during the fray?  From reports of killers (they protect perfect Charlie later - why not from the beginning) or is there NO EVIDENCE THAT LINKS HIM THERE AT THE BEGINNING?  That was an interesing thought.  Are we sure he wasn't there?  Why then would we think that he came back later?