Abigail Folger in Vogue - 1967

Moonglow

I appreciate the hard thought and hard work you have put into this, and agree that you have assembled a number of interesting observations and queries. But I'm afraid none of your points can really be classified as 'evidence'.

1. The age gap. 17 years in a re-marriage is far from unusual - three instances in my own (largely Catholic) family

2. The resemblence. This can easily be explained by a shared parent.

3. Fire At The Folgers. Your story here is pure conjecture, based on a newspaper article which itself, if even accurate, is far from clear. No points from me here.

4. Why no other children from the second Folger marriage? You mention some of the possible reasons youself: infertility, medical condition, birth control,

5. Why do no high school photographs? The fact you havent found any is no proof that there are/were not any taken. And we know that someone has tried hard to suppress photos of Gibby from morbid seekers like us.

6. Money, money, money. I dont think Peter Folger would have had the money to get a civil registry office to alter its records. I dont think the President could do that. But in any case, this is conjecture again.

So, with respect, and this is the teacher in me speaking  >, I submit that your evidence such as it is is circumstantial, and is mixed with more than a little speculation.

Over to others.

Jem

Interesting but I'm still going between both sides.

I could never sit on a jury, but I would make a great lawyer... or tabloid journalist.

[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4601.msg42846#msg42846 date=1259588653]
Interesting but I'm still going between both sides.

[/quote]

I'm not saying you're wrong - stranger things have happened, and I found a similar case in my own family research - just that there's no compelling evidence so far. We could go on digging, but I feel a little uncomfortable about it -  slandering the dead, that kind of thing, and maybe upsetting her family (if they read this forum).

[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4601.msg42846#msg42846 date=1259588653]
I could never sit on a jury, but I would make a great lawyer... or tabloid journalist.
[/quote]

The latter rather than the former, unless you hone your forensic skills  >

Jem

I would never slander Abigail... I would her father because there's too much evidence that he was a control freak.
I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable with my theories but like you said, stranger things have happened.

[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4601.msg42853#msg42853 date=1259590011]
I would never slander Abigail... I would her father because there's too much evidence that he was a control freak.
I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable with my theories but like you said, stranger things have happened.
[/quote]

No it's not that I feel uncomfortable in myself, I sometimes wonder about what family members might say if they read all our speculation. I've been known to post on the topic!

But it's nothing to do with you.

Jem

I understand. I guess we often forget in this cyber world that these people left real families behind.

When you adopted a child in the sixties a new birth certificate was issued and the original birth certificate and all adoption records were sealed (even from the adopted). So the birth certificate means nothing since it would allow you to put anything on it. I know I have two birth certificates for my husband one with his biological parents names and one with his adoptive parents names.

So the plot thickens, Lady Noel...

Any theories of your own?

I would like to see a picture of Peter Folger.  Anyone have one?

I'd search google images but I've long since avoided searching anything Folger related simply because I don't like seeing images of Gibby (and others) on a slab, which they often bring up. Though searching Elizabeth Folger doesn't bring those kinds of pictures up.

Mind you google images is a disgrace.

I will leave it in Cats hands. She's the one with the goods. Pic of Big Daddy Folger please, Chief!

1. Age Gap: This shows that it's a possibility, but I have a brother I'm 18 years older than, so I tend to gloss over what a crazy age gap it is.

2. The resemblance: As someone who has four half siblings (two from my dad's second marriage, two from my mom's second marriage) I do not share a strong resemblance with ANY of them. Even though we share one parent, the other parent's traits, DNA, etc play into the appearance of the children so it's rare to get two half-siblings (such as Gibby/Elizabeth) who look so very much alike.

3. Fire at Folgers: I agree that it's a little weird for Beverly to help with the fire if she was pregnant. But, assuming she WAS pregnant and DID help, I find it bizarre it wouldn't have been included in the article. Considering that the San Francisco newspaper was like the Us Weekly for prominent families back, I can't imagine they'd leave a pregnancy out. As for Gibby's absence, she couldn't have been in school since her brother was home and I doubt she would be with Ines since brother Peter was at the Folger mansion (unless they didn't have strict custody arrangements). Perhaps she was there and being hidden because of a pregnancy? Who knows? I'd really like to research this more, though.

Or by the time of the fire she'd been shipped off already, to one of those convents what house pregnant teenagers...  :-\

I didn't even gloss over this theory until I saw a picture of Elizabeth and it struck me that for a half sibling, she looks more like her older sister than the full sibling does.

[quote author=star79 link=topic=4601.msg42231#msg42231 date=1258828764]
If Abigail was preggo, Wouldn't the autopsy have showed that she had a child before? Just asking!
[/quote]Would they have looked for this during an autopsy at that time? ???

[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4601.msg42872#msg42872 date=1259602733]


I didn't even gloss over this theory until I saw a picture of Elizabeth and it struck me that for a half sibling, she looks more like her older sister than the full sibling does.
[/quote]Moonglow, I have several half siblings and we all share some characteristics, but none of them look enough like me to make people think we're full siblings so I've really been enjoying your theories here.  At least it's something new to discuss!

[quote author=Georgiapeach link=topic=4601.msg42875#msg42875 date=1259607452]
Would they have looked for this during an autopsy at that time? ???
[/quote]

No, they wouldn't have looked for anything like that (you little genius!)

And thank you for the praise. I was expecting people to round on me like beasts over my wild theory but I've been pleasantly surprised.

[quote author=moonglow link=topic=4601.msg42877#msg42877 date=1259609824]
No, they wouldn't have looked for anything like that (you little genius!)

And thank you for the praise. I was expecting people to round on me like beasts over my wild theory but I've been pleasantly surprised.
[/quote]You're welcome.  Hey, speaking for myself, I like it when people come up with something new.

And, thank you for calling me a little genius!  LOL  I was confused by that anyway.  I know that they'll check to see if a woman has had sex, but I didn't see why they'd look to see if one had given birth in the past especially considering the fact that she was murdered.  I didn't know if that was something they'd normally look for or not.

It wouldn't be of any relevence to check to see if she had EVER been pregnant, so they wouldn't have looked for it.

Both Gibby and Sharon would have been tested to see if either of them had been raped.

Does no-one consider that her social work would have brought her into contact with the seediest type of people? Plus, she was into drugs. Drugs also require seedy people. They were around, very much around.
And wealthy people sometimes seem to believe that they can play on the dark side of the street and just step back to the sunny side with no harm. Why wouldn't you think that if you'd always been shielded by your money?
So when it suddenly comes on top, they get a big surprise. They suddenly realise that the interesting and exciting shady types that gave them such a thrill are very very real. And they are not civilised.
To me, the most fascinating thing about Abigail is that she waved at Susan as she walked by. According to that guy from...Cream, was it? the one who knew Bobby? He said Susan was a wreck by then. He was outraged with Bobby for letting her crash in his bed. Dirty and scrawny and she'd have been bug-eyed with meth, too. Barefoot and messed-up: if I saw someone like that walk past my bedroom door, sure, I'd wave, and then leap to slam the door, block it and find help. What is it doing wandering through the house? Why didn't Gibby find that weird? Did she know her, or was she just so accustomed to street people floating about after midnight? Just think what a flood of light this casts on their life.
There's no doubt that the Polanski people world and the underground world were meshing at the edges, and the glue of the mesh was drugs. Abigail's work may have put her in touch with these people in the first place. Dealers like Lotsapoppa, maybe?

well we only have Susan's word that Abigail waved at her and given Susan's track record it might not be true. Also Abigail was coming down off of something, she was in bed - she could have been half asleep hence another reason for not reacting the way one would. Another thing to remember is people left their doors unlocked then - they picked up hitch hikers - they did things differently - it was the summer after the summer of love - hippies were peace and love - this was the case that changed all of that.

Welcome Fiona to the board!

Would like to also add that strange people were the norm in that household, so from what I gather, Abigail nor Sharon found this alarming. Again, this was the 60's, Sharon and Roman were very, very lax in letting people into their homes and Leslie Carron, in a statement of hindsight or maybe not, said she was alarmed by the Polanskis trust in letting anyone in their house whether they knew them or not. Remember, also, Richard Speck and Charles Manson (among others, but they are the ones mostly named for making people start thinking about security and safety) ruined the innocence of people leaving their front doors and windows unlocked at night. Its hard NOW to think of the mindset 40 something years ago, but society was different back then. That's why people long for the good old days, I suppose.